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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Myalternate · 18/05/2024 08:51

Excellent! 👏👏👏👏

although how depressing that it even needs to be celebrated 😟

ArabellaScott · 18/05/2024 08:52

Ahoy!

TeaandScandal · 18/05/2024 08:53

Myalternate · 18/05/2024 08:51

Excellent! 👏👏👏👏

although how depressing that it even needs to be celebrated 😟

Yes, exactly this.

highame · 18/05/2024 09:14

I think the difference between male and female in sailing is quite significant. Like many sports, they are built around male physique and strength and in the case of sailing, this is very obvious, boats are not built with women in mind. Get a man on a boat with women and the difference is striking. I can't imagine there would be much debate. They'd throw down the stats and that would be that, which it clearly was.

It's also not easy putting lippy on when you're rounding a buoy

WickedSerious · 18/05/2024 09:32

highame · 18/05/2024 09:14

I think the difference between male and female in sailing is quite significant. Like many sports, they are built around male physique and strength and in the case of sailing, this is very obvious, boats are not built with women in mind. Get a man on a boat with women and the difference is striking. I can't imagine there would be much debate. They'd throw down the stats and that would be that, which it clearly was.

It's also not easy putting lippy on when you're rounding a buoy

It's quite breezy out there too if you're wearing a wig.

Rainbowshit · 18/05/2024 09:59

Good news. Again just elite level though. Shows how little grassroots sports means to these sporting bodies.

lcakethereforeIam · 18/05/2024 09:59

It's also not easy putting lippy on when you're rounding a buoy 😆

Not a typo...or a euphemism?

Well done world sailing!

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 18/05/2024 10:06

Well done World Sailing, a victory for common sense.

Also World Rugby have been equally great on this issue - if only the International Olympic Committee would take notice 😡

Snowypeaks · 18/05/2024 13:26

Great, better than some, but still the bare minimum.
Males are still allowed under certain circumstances. Boys who have blocked their puberty can compete in the female category. I would imagine that also male athletes with CAIS can compete if they suppress testosterone. However few in number, they will feature in the higher percentiles of ability. Where are the displaced women and girls going to go?
The policy is still deciding sporting category eligibility on the basis of irrelevant factors like gender identity (for women in the male categories) and current testosterone levels (for males in the female category).
The concept of meaningful rather than fair competition is enshrined in the policy - the idea that they want to avoid a disproportionately unfair advantage - a nonsense idea that somehow isn't part of male sport.
This has to be a first step - a big one - but only a first step. We aren't there yet.

And also it only covers the levels World Sailing regulate, so I hope lower federations follow suit.

Signalbox · 18/05/2024 15:02

I have to say I don't like these sorts of rules. It feels wrong to require boys to have been given such powerful drugs to make them eligible for participation as an adult. It's very much like what they did to the castrati boys.

Also the rules are so vague. No male puberty beyond Tanner stage 2 but will only need to demonstrate lower than 2.5 nmo/L of testosterone for 12 months prior to the first event. How can they assess that a person has not gone beyond Tanner stage 2? Surely they would need to see evidence that a person had had their puberty blocked continuously since they were around 10 or 11 years old?

Eligibility for Transgender female athletes 5.4. To be eligible to compete and have any recognised sailing performance in the Female category of competition at an Event or to be eligible to compete as a Female in the Mixed Category of an Event, a Transgender female athlete must meet each of the following conditions to the satisfaction of the Medical Manager: 5.4.1.the athlete must provide a written and signed declaration, in a form satisfactory to the Medical Manager, that her gender identity is female; 5.4.2.the athlete must not have experienced any part of male puberty beyond Tanner Stage 2; 5.4.3.the athlete must demonstrate that the concentration of testosterone in her serum has been less than 2.5 nmol/L continuously for a period of at least twelve (12) months prior to the first Event they wish to compete in. The athlete must send the relevant medical certificates to the Medical Manager at least six (6) weeks in advance of the first Event in which she wishes to participate in the Female category or as a Female in the Mixed category; and 5.4.4.the athlete must continue to maintain the concentration of testosterone in their serum below 2.5 nmol/L at all times (i.e. whether they are in competition or out of competition) for so long as they wish to retain eligibility to compete in the Female category at Events and/or have recognised sailing performance in the Female classification.

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 18/05/2024 16:10

SignalBox these rules aren't going to force boys to take puberty blockers, no child is going to say 'oh I want to compete in sailing so I must go on hormones'.

It's just limiting the eligible criteria to those who started puberty blockers young enough to counteract the effects of male puberty, which is significant. Just reducing testosterone for a year or whatever is not enough to negate the benefits of male puberty.

As an aside, I don't think ANY male should qualify for female sports, regardless of puberty blockers. It is likely that they had to come up with some sort of 'compromise' to appear fair.

ZeldaFighter · 18/05/2024 17:13

The only other fly in the ointment is that it applies from 2025.

The Olympics are this Summer.

OP posts:
Snowypeaks · 18/05/2024 17:25

Signalbox
I agree - "no males" is just so much cleaner and clearer. It's annoying that they feel obliged to accommodate males in the category which was created to exclude them.

Hornyhorners
No, no child would say that but there are already boys dominating girls' sport who have been on puberty blockers - in Canada and USA. Boys have a significant athletic performance advantage over girls - it's just that it's not as large before puberty. In strength, speed, muscle mass, grip, everything you can measure, except for balance and flexibility. So as they grow they retain that advantage even if they don't get the turbo-charging of puberty. It's just not fair. The compromise isn't fair because it's a one-way street. Girls who take testosterone are not going to go on to dominate boys' or men's sport.

Signalbox · 18/05/2024 17:47

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 18/05/2024 16:10

SignalBox these rules aren't going to force boys to take puberty blockers, no child is going to say 'oh I want to compete in sailing so I must go on hormones'.

It's just limiting the eligible criteria to those who started puberty blockers young enough to counteract the effects of male puberty, which is significant. Just reducing testosterone for a year or whatever is not enough to negate the benefits of male puberty.

As an aside, I don't think ANY male should qualify for female sports, regardless of puberty blockers. It is likely that they had to come up with some sort of 'compromise' to appear fair.

SignalBox these rules aren't going to force boys to take puberty blockers, no child is going to say 'oh I want to compete in sailing so I must go on hormones'.

I'd love to believe you are right but there are plenty of pushy sporting parents out there who will be fully aware of rules like this and it'll add to the pressure to get their child's puberty blocked as early as possible. I've seen plenty of activists railing against TERFs because we don't want "transgirls" to receive puberty suppression early enough to allow them to have no physical advantage over women once they reach adulthood.

Here is an eligibility criteria that says if boys take these drugs young enough they will be able to participate with women in the sport of their choice, when in reality all they will be doing is harming their bodies / fertility and blocking their sexuality. There is potential for harm and I don't think eligibility should ever be based on a requirement to have surgeries or take medications that are known to have harmful side-effects.

Hopefully this will not be an issue in the UK now that the NHS aren't offering this as a treatment and it looks like they are going to prevent private clinics from doing so also.

Igmum · 18/05/2024 19:28

A good step forward but yes, we need no males whatsoever to be specified and we need the grass roots players to enjoy single sex sports too

WickedSerious · 18/05/2024 19:39

'Females only' would suffice.

TeaandScandal · 18/05/2024 19:40

WickedSerious · 18/05/2024 19:39

'Females only' would suffice.

Would it, though? There shouldn’t be any ambiguity on what constitutes being female, but we live in strange times…

WickedSerious · 18/05/2024 19:47

TeaandScandal · 18/05/2024 19:40

Would it, though? There shouldn’t be any ambiguity on what constitutes being female, but we live in strange times…

Strange times indeed.

'Biological females only'?

ErrolTheDragon · 18/05/2024 19:57

Well, it's better than nothing but they've mangled language.
Under the new policy, transgender female athletes will only be permitted to participate in the female category of an event, or as a female athlete in the mixed category of an event, if:
they have not undergone male puberty;

Yeah, well no transgender female ever goes through true male puberty. They mean transgender male athletes, not trans females on THmm

I think the difference between male and female in sailing is quite significant. Like many sports, they are built around male physique and strength and in the case of sailing, this is very obvious, boats are not built with women in mind.

Laser Radials are. Blokes race full rig, women race Radials.

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