NHS England EDI online training

[stuffyoursandbox]

Is this true or wishful thinking on their part?

Not true at all. Illegal advice. The right comparator is peolle of the same biological sex as the trans person, not the desired gender.

The legal right to use the wrong loo, the non binary protection, or both?

(I think the amswer is 'wishful thinking' in both cases. IIRC correctly Landrover was an employment tribunal, not an appeal, so doesn't set precedent - and was also somewhat vague.)

Yes and no.
Yes what it says about who falls under the characteristic of gender reassignment is correct.
No what it says about toilets and facilities is not correct. Infact the ruling in the fair play for women Scotland case against the Scottish government it was ruled that no biological male who does not have a GRC has the right or even the expectation of the right to enter female facilities

That's naughty... the Act does require that a person intends to begin a medically supervised transition, so to extrapolate from that that pure social transition is sufficient is certainly misrepresentstion of the law.

@stuffyoursandbox op is there any chance you can send yours screenshots in to the gov evidence website plse? No eprsonal info required. As no there's no right to use opposite sex 'single sex' spaces, even with a GRC if it's for privacy, dignity and safety- so many NHS staff are confused by this training
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/call-for-input-incorrect-guidance-on-single-sex-spaces-and-gender-self-identification

@Ingenieur
no physical/ medical changes are necessary to get a GRC . (It was expected originally but the act was amended -I think due to a case in Europe?). Most men who ID as women, for example, just change their clothing choices or have breast implants, then try to enter female only spaces where women/ girls are undressed and vulnerable.

The first part is correct, the second part of it about toilets & what not is stonewall law ie bollocks

Hah! I did this training a couple of months ago and asked myself the same question, Op.

@Chariothorses

I didn't suggest that physical changes were necessary, just that the process is medically supervised.

Excellent idea to send it to the call.for evidence. I'll do the same (complaints to our HR dept got nowhere because they didn't write/choose it).

Times have changed but the law hasn't. It looks like an excellent example for the consultation.

The Taylor v Jaguar Landrover is a bit of a red herring as far as I am aware - in that it was an employment tribunal.

In other words, the decisions made cannot be used to set legal precedents

(which is why, in hindsight, Maya losing at the ET was a good thing, although it didn't seem so at the time!)

@Ingenieur
It's a mess isn't it. Medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria is needed for a GRC (which many transpeople don't bother with) but not for a passport pretending you are the opposite sex- cross dressers and men with sexual fetishes welcome!

And do you remember the NHS Trust that said they didn't ask staff actual sex, just gender beliefs and passport 'sex', so they couldn't give a female patient same sex care !
https://policyexchange.org.uk/publication/gender-identity-ideology-in-the-nhs/

I believe that there have two cases, one about a male who identified as a woman entering women's toilets in a pub which said he was entitled to use the women's. Also one which said that non-binary counts under the gender reassignment protected characteristic. However, both are first instance decisions and therefore do not form a precedent, but they may be considered in related cases.

Ha, sorry, see late to the party.

Ive submitted it to survey. I am also sure it had GI in Protected characteristics last time it does say sex now. There is a link to a document all about LGbtqi+ discrimination with lots of examples many of which seemed questionable in that a GC person asserting themselves could be deems to be "phobic"

Here’s another one

https://www.bsuh.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/2016/09/Gender-and-Sexual-Diversities-Briefing.pdf

The NHS is infested with this, including the professionals we’re supposed to trust.

Thanks for confirming what I thought about sex being excluded in the characteristics. Maybe lots of people complained/queried and it got changed. Good to see fellow NHSE colleagues calling this out.

They shouldn't just use 'sex' either as you can't change your sex. Surely they are referring to the GRA that changes your legal sex?

Looks at it this way. The Equality Act is about balancing rights because some rights can conflict. Suggesting that a trans person has a defacto right to use ss is wrong because there is legislation in place to say that it is not discrimination to put exceptions in place, which stop them. Each organisation can set their own policy but it certainly isn’t the law to say that it is automatic right.

@WhyThatsDelightful Please send it in!

@PaleBlueMoonlight Maya F tweeted another couple of cases recently too- another (old) pub one which found a male who identified as a woman could be banned from the female loos for the privacy and safety of women, and an employment tribunal where the woman won as the loo was mixed sex.

It's no surprise there's such confusion. Stonewall training has done so much harm to women and hasn't been replaced by the EHRC guidance yet for many employers . https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/news/guidance-published-providers-single-sex-services .

Done 👍

A transwoman can't be banned from using the gents, as they have to be given the same opportunities as the other men. TRAs have twisted this to be a transwoman can't be banned from the ladies. Actual law vs stonewall law

From the EA:

Gender reassignment

(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

(2)A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—

(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;

(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7 (said to be correct as of 10 May 2024)

I think the inclusion of the reference to "transsexual" person/s is because it is used in earlier legislation.

(Have to admit I am not sure what "other attributes of sex" mean.)