Feel very conflicted watching this Kevin Spacey doc.

[Appalonia]

Was watching this last night and it's on now. I think I'm comparing what the men are talking about,which is low level groping, to the horrific sexual assaults women have endured ( for example from men like Harvey Weinstein ), and how traumatised the men appear to be. But then I thought, they are genuinely shocked and traumatised by this, and it's taken courage from them to talk about it so publically, so who am I to minimise how they feel about it? I think it's just the contrast between how much women aren't believed and are shamed for serious sexual abuse and these men are saying how traumatised they are by something that would barely be considered sexual assault by the justice system. Don't know if this makes sense, but there's something about the difference in the approach that doesn't sit right with me.

Just to be clear, I know men can be sexually assaulted too, but why aren't women's experiences treated so sympathetically?

There is a positive way of framing this.
For a long time sexual assault - especially groping etc wasn't taken seriously (it often still isn't but I do think its better). This affected women the most but it also affected men too even if the numbers were smaller. Due to relentless campaigning (from rad fems in the 70s to people who spoke about Weinstein) we are at a point where it is at least taken more seriously than it used to and there are conversations about power imbalances etc. (albeit there is a massive backlash). This also has created a situation where male victims are more likely to be believed/less likely to be mocked. It probably created a situation where the men were able to come forward. And that's a net positive thing. I am really really glad the boys/men who did nothing wrong are being believed. I also think as men see more positives for themselves (protection from sexual harassment/rape) they are more likely to see the benefits in a system/cultural mindset that says this is not OK. Its also useful to point out cases like these as an example when certain people like to complain about the evils of feminism, of how men can benefit too. Its not zero sum (except for the people that want to commit abuse).

I think men often minimise women's experiences because they haven't experienced sexual assault and don't understand how traumatising it can be. They also forget that much of the issue is the power dynamic so no, a female PA pinching the bum of her male boss is not the same as the other way around. I think it can only be a good thing that men are speaking out about what it's like to be on the receiving end. Maybe then they'll take women more seriously.

And to be honest, the circumstances of the assaults - when many of the victims were underage, sometimes in a very vulnerable situation (e.g. trapped on a bed with a much larger, older man on top) and where there was an extreme power imbalance (famous actor) would have made it much more traumatising. I (like to?) think an assault on a female in those circumstances would also be taken seriously by most decent people (stress on the word decent, Dickheads are always going to act like dickheads.)

It reminds me of seeing someone talking along the lines of how feminism had backfired for women because now female teachers were also being convicted for having sexual relationships with their students. And thinking well, good! Just because I don't want underage girls being groomed into sexual relationships doesn't mean I don't care about boys also being groomed. Its a weird kind of thinking that some of the MRA types have that genuinely sees the world as 2 teams locked in a zero sum game and project their own thinking onto feminism.

(The someone was a male commentator BTW)

What channel is this on please

I'm not really seeing a difference in approach. I agree that many of the assaults he perpetrated, while awful, were less awful than so many other assaults by various public figures. But what is very striking is that they clearly were extremely traumatising nonetheless. And I certainly don't get the sense that these victims are taken more seriously because they are male.

Until recently (perhaps even now), male victims of sexual assault often had an even harder time speaking out and being heard than female victims have had. They were (are?) often mocked horrifically.

Seeing the extent of trauma from the particular variety of assault that Spacey went in for can only have the effect of heightening our sensitivity towards all victims, male and female, of all degrees of power-abusing sexual violation

It’s just driving home to me how some men with power will use that power to get what they want. My heart goes out to the victims in the same way it goes out to any victim of such abuse. I admit noting how the language of ‘freezing’ and ‘shame’ was familiar to me but how I haven’t heard it from many men before. I thought the men who spoke in this programme were very brave and I’ve come away feeling very angry on their behalf.

I tend to think that if the circumstances were similar, women would be treated in a similar way.

I don't really think the underlying fears for male victims are that differernt - the fear of being mocked, the fear of being not believed because they are men, so could fight back, etc. There are some differernces too I am sure - the feeling of having been emasculated, and I think it can be very shocking to men who have never really worried about sexual assault.

What it suggests to me though is that sexual assault isn't really about misogyny as such. There is a lot of it on the gay equivalent of the club scene. I think that it's about the aggressive nature of male sexuality, and that will manifest among exploiters whether the object of desire is male, female, or non-human.

I have felt conflicted too.
Almost an anger really that women have been relaying stories like this for donkeys' years, not from a famous actor, but from very ordinary men, everyday - at work, on the bus, the tube, walking home from school, from work, from a friends house. I had my breasts casually groped by a man walking past me as I waited at a bus stop aged 19. A friend of mine had a man put his hand into her knickers while she waited to be served at a bar when she was 18, I was stood right next to her and we were talking - she suddenly froze.
It makes me angry that for so long we've been asked - why didn't you do anything? why didn't you shout/walk/away/fight back? And here we are. Men frozen, powerless, used and abused like women have been for many years.
None of it is right of course, but why are men taken more seriously than women when they tell these tales?
Having said that - Spacey was not found guilty of anything was he. So I suppose men are feeling the same injustice we have for so long.

Agree they were very brave to speak out so publically. What was also shocking was that, even though these men were not physically weaker ( as most women are ) and could defend themselves , there was a power imbalance. ( and it's striking that Spacey chose men who were in a weaker position than him ). And they still reported a lot of the things that women do, like freezing, and blaming themselves.

I know that in some places male victims of sexual violence in conflicts are starting to set up specific support groups. What is nice (probably not the right word) is that some of the earlier knowledge and examples of grassroot support groups set up by (female) victims from other conflicts is being drawn on and used. So "good practice" and lessons learned can be utilised but also adapted by the male victims where necessary to meet their needs.
One group of victims/survivors achieving positive things/talking about their experience can have a knock on effect in inspiring others.

Thank you all for your replies, I did feel a bit nervous about posting this, I'm glad pp got what I was trying to articulate, I think it's appalling what happened to these men, it can't have been easy to open up to publically about what happened to them, but when do we ever see women and girl's serious sexual assaults being platformed and taken seriously?

They were very brave in speaking out publicly and their trauma is clear. However, it was noted that one of the victims (maybe even two of them) said that their concern was not of being raped but of losing a potential career. So, not the same as women's experience, who fear being raped if not killed.

Exactly. The man who raped me when I was 16 said to me, if I ever told anyone about it, he'd kill me. So I never did.

Some women are also afraid of losing their career though. I don't read that as him not being afraid of rape/being less bothered. More a (very brave) acknowledgement of the huge impact being in a career as competitive as showbusiness where often very young people will have made imaginable sacrifices to try to achieve the one job they desperately want to do. In that situation, its not like a normal career its more like an entire identity. It makes men and women massively vulnerable to exploitation.

I think you’re right op. It is treated far more reverently and taken far more seriously. Women’s pain and distress is never considered as significant as that suffered by men. You’ve only got to look at the evidence across the NHS, maternity services, courts of law, the media etc.

I know what you mean, OP. Of course any sexual abuse is wrong, but I too struggle with the idea that it's 'worse' for boys and men, it's harder for them to speak about it, it's more damaging - like it's easy for girls and women to speak about it, and like it doesn't damage us.

I've often heard men who abuse children giving the excuse that they were abused in childhood themselves, which is no excuse at all - if that was the case, most abusers would be women, since more girls are abused than boys.

My take on this subject is coloured by the fact that in Ireland, 'sexual abuse' became almost synonymous with 'clerical abuse', and in most, though by no means all, of the high profile cases of priests who abused children, their victims were boys. For a long time in Ireland, the term 'Survivor of childhood sexual abuse' implied a male survivor of assault by a priest.
Since then, the range of abusers has widened - sports coaches, scout masters, teachers, doctors...still all men, of course - but the idea of the survivor being male persists.
When they come forward, men are readily believed and treated with great sympathy in the media.

The most publicised female equivalent are the survivors of institutions like the mother and child homes and the Magdalen Laundries [they were quite distinct in origin and function, but they get blurred because of obvious shared abusive characteristics].

Sexual abuse was not part of the experience in these institutions **

That leaves female survivors of childhood sexual abuse in Ireland somewhat in the shadows, whereas male survivors are emblematic.

**[I believe that is factually correct, I recall one case where a nun was imprisoned for rape of a little girl - she was claimed to have assisted the rapist; she was later completely cleared and compensated for the miscarriage of justice, but it took six years to clear her name.].

'Me Too' made people look more seriously at sexual assault at all levels and the misuse of power and influence beginning with Weinstein. Many abusers were caught up in that. But there was a backlash against women and 'false allegations'. I'll bet there will be no allegations against Spacey's accusers.

I agree OP. And I wait to see the reception of this programme. It appears that sexual abuse of women is so common place the reaction is much less but if it happens to a man society is really shocked.
As someone who has been through this myself I find I can hear the truth when survivors speak and had no doubt at all in believing these men. I am struggling a bit to articulate what I mean but it’s not dramatic stories it’s the little things and how it is said that mean I know exactly that place, that feeling.
I can only think the jury who found slimy Spacey not guilty were fortunate enough to have no such insight.

He literally said that he wasn’t worried about being raped.

@ontheflighttosingapore
"Spacey Unmasked", 06 and 07 May, 9pm, Channel 4