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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Maddy70 · 07/05/2024 12:43

theDudesmummy · 07/05/2024 12:20

It matters to me, yes, especially with the poor level of understanding that people (including women) seem to have about female anatomy in general, which I believe needs to be challenged as much as possible. (I still can't understand how Lammysaurus imagined someone could grow a cervix, when he had fathered three children).

Why does it matter to you that another woman might misname her vulva or vagina?

Why do feel you need to challenge? That's way too much energy, call yours whatever you want to.

DrTWETMIRF · 07/05/2024 12:59

I don't say vulva when people on telly get it wrong but I do say venomous when people say poisonous incorrectly. If a venomous snake bites you it's a problem, if you bite a poisonous snake it's a problem.

Tinysoxxx · 07/05/2024 13:12

Maddy70 · 07/05/2024 12:43

Why does it matter to you that another woman might misname her vulva or vagina?

Why do feel you need to challenge? That's way too much energy, call yours whatever you want to.

Because it is biologically and medically incorrect. Language matters. If you can clearly see someone’s vagina without instruments, it’s a prolapse.

If I called a sclera a retina that would be incorrect too.

rollmop · 07/05/2024 13:12

This takes me back. People on mumsnet used to get really upset about this (not vulva/vagina per se, although some people were furious about the idea of using the word vulva for some reason), but using the actual correct body parts at all - "flower" or "minny" were weirdly popular alternatives.

So it's good that we've moved forward a bit I guess, but clearly there's still some sort of idea that vulva is too rude for common discourse.

AstonCanKissMyArse · 07/05/2024 13:23

TempestTost · 07/05/2024 10:37

I'm not sure I've ever needed to say "clitoris" is general conversation? It's not like people refer to it, specifically, a lot.

I can't get too het up about people outside of medical settings using more colloquial language. Though I think it's better when they don't sound to silly.

The discussion isn't about people using colloquialisms though, it's about official sources trying and failing to use the correct term. This doesn't happen with male anatomy - no one says 'testicles' when they mean 'penis'.

There seems to be a prevalence of use of the term 'vagina' to mean 'vulva' at the moment, as though vulva is far too rude! Words have meanings, vagina means vagina and vulva means vulva. Call your vulva a minny if you must, but calling a vulva a vagina is just confusing.

People here care about clear communication regarding women's health.

theDudesmummy · 07/05/2024 13:44

@Maddy70 the correct terminology is very important in medical contexts, including women being able to visualise and name their own body parts in an unconfused way in order to know what they need and to describe their problems (and understand information given to them including public health information). But I would also argue that anyone who has sexual relationships with women should seek to have a good understanding of their sexual organs. And that people who have responsibility for making policies which affect women's reproductive health and their rights should be compelled to educate themselves too.

If someone wants to call their vulva a foof or whatever, I have absolutely no problem with that as it is clearly a euphemism, and the doctor or nurse would take steps to clarify what they meant. I myself use willy and pussy at times (although not in medical settings!).

I assume if Lammy has three children and doesn't know what a cervix is then he wasn't present at his wife's labour or the birth of any of the children? Otherwise what would he have imagined it to mean when a midwife said "5cm dilated" etc (or perhaps he just didn't care, very possible). (If she had three caesereans then I guess I would judge him slightly differently).

My 80 year old father most likely doesn't know what a cervix is but most of the people currently failing to understand basic anatomy, biology and genetics aren't 80.

OP posts:
Maddy70 · 07/05/2024 14:15

Tinysoxxx · 07/05/2024 13:12

Because it is biologically and medically incorrect. Language matters. If you can clearly see someone’s vagina without instruments, it’s a prolapse.

If I called a sclera a retina that would be incorrect too.

Lots of words are incorrect. Why does it directly impact you what someone else calls their foof or whatever else they like to call it.

Tinysoxxx · 07/05/2024 14:45

Maddy70 · 07/05/2024 14:15

Lots of words are incorrect. Why does it directly impact you what someone else calls their foof or whatever else they like to call it.

It doesn’t impact me what nicknames people have for parts of their bodies but it does impact them if they don’t know the correct word. Communication is very important for social, biological, legal and medical reasons.

Mixing up the names of two different body parts is worse than nicknames. The knowledge of the correct words is of no value unless you put it into practice because you are inadvertently teaching others the wrong word too.

Soigneur · 07/05/2024 15:01

They fixed it in the headline and body (there's even an amendment statement at the end). They won't have changed it in the URL though as they don't want broken links in search engine results.

The article is syndicated from Agence France-Presse so it will have been poor translation from French.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/05/2024 15:45

That's no excuse. Translators, of all people, should know the importance of choosing the correct word.

Hepwo · 07/05/2024 15:57

I love that painting, I've seen the original, it's glorious.

I love the title.

It's actually the whole pelvic region and abdomen, which you notice after admiring the beautifully painted bush, and is where everyone is grown, the origin of the world.

Wonderful and I didn't know story either, so glad it was such a loving and respectful commission and clearly in awe of the power of a life creating body.

lordloveadog · 07/05/2024 19:22

In Sweden a man was recently cleared of rape because the young girl he attacked used a colloquial term which can mean either vulva or vagina and the (male) court pretended this meant they couldn’t say whether she had been penetrated.

lordloveadog · 07/05/2024 19:29

The case ended up in the High Court where he was finally convicted. The female High Court chair is quoted explaining in this article:

https://www.dn.se/sverige/mannen-i-snippamalet-falls-for-barnvaldtakt-i-ny-hovrattsdom/

But this is a distinction which matters legally and girls need to know the specifics, not just vague ‘down there’ terms.

Mannen i ”snippamålet” fälls för våldtäkt mot barn i ny hovrättsdom

Mannen som friades från barnvåldtäkt för ett år sen döms nu till tre års fängelse efter att rättegången tagits om. Flickans reaktion: ”Yes!”

https://www.dn.se/sverige/mannen-i-snippamalet-falls-for-barnvaldtakt-i-ny-hovrattsdom/

duc748 · 07/05/2024 22:11

Sorry to be vulgar, but surely all it needs is an examination, and "He put it in there"? Seems incredible that strict terminology was necessary.

Dineasair · 08/05/2024 01:39

Maddy70 · 07/05/2024 14:15

Lots of words are incorrect. Why does it directly impact you what someone else calls their foof or whatever else they like to call it.

Oh just stop. You appear to be deliberately obtuse, it looks silly, we’re not five.

EBearhug · 08/05/2024 02:13

This was back in the day when you couldn’t take a photo of your lover to look at and remember (or wank to), so you had to commission a painting of your mistress.

You certainly could by 1866, and plenty of Victorian men with money did have pornographic photographs. Courbet's colour is better though.

Maddy70 · 08/05/2024 08:15

Dineasair · 08/05/2024 01:39

Oh just stop. You appear to be deliberately obtuse, it looks silly, we’re not five.

Why? I can call my body parts whatever i like. Who are you to dictate to another woman how they should speak?. Women like you give feminists a bad name

lordloveadog · 08/05/2024 10:23

@duc748 you’d think so, right? If you run that article through Google translate you can see the High Court did eventually decide just that. But a lower court thought it had found a technicality on which to let yet another sex offender off.

Dineasair · 08/05/2024 11:10

Maddy70 · 08/05/2024 08:15

Why? I can call my body parts whatever i like. Who are you to dictate to another woman how they should speak?. Women like you give feminists a bad name

oh dear, my comment was about the fact that you seemed to be missing the point entirely and I suspected that was deliberate. There is a world of difference between giving your body parts a childish euphemism in private and naming body parts properly in things that matter, like art and medical literature for gods sake. A vulva is external and a vagina is internal and that’s significant and it’s something that everyone should know. I would suggest that people who can’t deal with the proper grown up names for women’s body parts give feminism a bad name.

SummerFeverVenice · 08/05/2024 14:24

theDudesmummy · 07/05/2024 11:54

Well I guess the penis and vagina are the two essentials for the actual act and so are what are referred to primarily, although they are not analogous organs. Although if people think vulvas are vaginas then that doesn't really stack up.

@SummerFeverVenice thanks so much for that explanation. I was feeling bad about loving the painting after seeing @Gagagardener 's post. I think I love it partly because of the nice full unabashed bush! (I showed to to DH and that's what he liked about it too).

You shouldn’t feel bad. @Gagagardener ’s post is from modern point of view fully grounded in a post #metoo world. The painting is a product of the times- it’s a private picture meant to be known about only by two lovers (the artist kept it secret who she was as they were required to do).

I love the painting too.

SummerFeverVenice · 08/05/2024 14:31

EBearhug · 08/05/2024 02:13

This was back in the day when you couldn’t take a photo of your lover to look at and remember (or wank to), so you had to commission a painting of your mistress.

You certainly could by 1866, and plenty of Victorian men with money did have pornographic photographs. Courbet's colour is better though.

Oh sorry, my mistake I was thinking colour photos. It was more classy to commission a painting- no chance of copies leaking and no chance of finding any prints that DID reveal her identity.

Maddy70 · 08/05/2024 15:21

Dineasair · 08/05/2024 11:10

oh dear, my comment was about the fact that you seemed to be missing the point entirely and I suspected that was deliberate. There is a world of difference between giving your body parts a childish euphemism in private and naming body parts properly in things that matter, like art and medical literature for gods sake. A vulva is external and a vagina is internal and that’s significant and it’s something that everyone should know. I would suggest that people who can’t deal with the proper grown up names for women’s body parts give feminism a bad name.

Edited

Talking down to other women because you think you are evervso superior and dont like what they say and have different opinions is the opposite of feminism.
I actually do call my own bodyparts the correct terms but if i want to call it a foof I jolly well will without another woman judging me and other women
Why should art use the correct terms? Art should provoke. Thats generally the purpose

AstonCanKissMyArse · 08/05/2024 17:15

Do feminists have to respond meekly when someone attacks them, in case they're then accused of 'talking down'?

As has been said on this thread several times, you do you.

AstonCanKissMyArse · 08/05/2024 17:17

The discussion is about the Guardian's choice of words when reporting on the art.

Not the art itself (or what any individual woman chooses to name her vulva).

Dineasair · 08/05/2024 18:08

Maddy70 · 08/05/2024 15:21

Talking down to other women because you think you are evervso superior and dont like what they say and have different opinions is the opposite of feminism.
I actually do call my own bodyparts the correct terms but if i want to call it a foof I jolly well will without another woman judging me and other women
Why should art use the correct terms? Art should provoke. Thats generally the purpose

Ffs, do you lot never tire of playing the victim card?