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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Pearson response to Petronella Wyatt (who show that the biggest cause of feminism being misrepresented is the women who men choose to write about it

25 replies

IwantToRetire · 01/05/2024 00:34

I couldn't be bothered to join the thread about the article by Petronella Wyatt because it is so abundantly clear that one of the biggest enemies of feminism is the MSM portrayal of feminism by women that men have chosen to "speak for us".

Anyone who has taken any part of media feminism as any sort of guideline not just to feminism but for the life I feel really sorry for.

Never forget the women that men choose are never the women that women choose.

Why would anyone think that a writer for a UK paper would be a source of informative radical politics for women. (Not forgetting the epitome of this the Guardian.)

But as the other thread was responded to I thought I would post the link to this response.

Even though I dont think discussing either article has any relevance to the actual practice of feminism as they are as ridiculous as looking to Hollywood movies for parenting or relationship advice.

These articles are false flags, and I feel extremely sorry for both Petronella and Allison if either of them genuinely thought that the dinner party chat feminism they dished out to each other was something they should use to make life decisions.

How could they have been so taken in?

Because men validated them by printing their paper thin concepts as to what feminism was and is about? Confused

AP's araticle is at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/04/30/women-childless-problem-not-feminism-petronella-wyatt/

Can also be read at https://archive.ph/ShFu4

(As I said I didn't read the other thread and hope that nobody on that thread ever go sucked down the rabbit hole of media feminism. Is it any wonder that feminism is so ridiculed and ignored by the media when they have been able to get women to churn out this individualistic nonsense?!! Grin)

Link to other thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5062678-feminism-has-left-middle-aged-women-like-me-single-childless-and-depressed

Don’t knock feminism – having children is about personal priorities

To ‘have it all’ meant we had to behave like men... but it can be hard to give up the new-found freedom that came with it

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/04/30/women-childless-problem-not-feminism-petronella-wyatt

OP posts:
AutumnCrow · 01/05/2024 00:58

Oh lordy.

Certainly, women of my generation were told we could “have it all”

... said no-one ever except crap editors and journalists who made the bloody phrase up as a magical stick against which to judge 'modern' women and find them foolish, failing, grasping and lacking. Same old same old.

And because of that it's even more pressing that Islington journo TWAW 'feminism' goes away and withers in a corner and lets their adored Labour leader actually reclaim the importance of sex class analysis.

FlakyPoet · 01/05/2024 07:36

Have you two read two completely different articles than me?

Neither seems anti-feminist. PW’s seems to be a very personal one about how her feminist idealism has hit cold reality, and AP’s is a sympathetic critique.

I really don’t get the over-reaction on FWR about PW’s article.

Why so prickly?

FlakyPoet · 01/05/2024 07:39

I am wondering if it is inverse snobbery? PW is a privileged posho so she isn’t allowed to complain about anything, in particular her own bed she made and chose to lie in?

She is a human being.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/05/2024 07:46

If feminism is the enemy of marriage & motherhood that PW implied then the vast majority of women in FWR would be single and childfree but they’re not

EdithStourton · 01/05/2024 07:55

I can't take PW seriously.

ANYONE who would sleep with Boris Johnson cannot, by definition, be taken seriously.

FlakyPoet · 01/05/2024 07:57

Theeyeballsinthesky · 01/05/2024 07:46

If feminism is the enemy of marriage & motherhood that PW implied then the vast majority of women in FWR would be single and childfree but they’re not

You might have spotted that FWR is a subforum of a website called ‘mumsnet’. The fact that there is a significant minority of women here who aren’t mothers or women TTC speaks volumes.

Anyway, I didn’t hear anyone say feminism is the enemy of marriage and motherhood - that was you. Why do you paraphrase the article in that way?

Otterly2 · 01/05/2024 07:59

EdithStourton · 01/05/2024 07:55

I can't take PW seriously.

ANYONE who would sleep with Boris Johnson cannot, by definition, be taken seriously.

🙄

Dineasair · 01/05/2024 16:56

IwantToRetire · 01/05/2024 00:34

I couldn't be bothered to join the thread about the article by Petronella Wyatt because it is so abundantly clear that one of the biggest enemies of feminism is the MSM portrayal of feminism by women that men have chosen to "speak for us".

Anyone who has taken any part of media feminism as any sort of guideline not just to feminism but for the life I feel really sorry for.

Never forget the women that men choose are never the women that women choose.

Why would anyone think that a writer for a UK paper would be a source of informative radical politics for women. (Not forgetting the epitome of this the Guardian.)

But as the other thread was responded to I thought I would post the link to this response.

Even though I dont think discussing either article has any relevance to the actual practice of feminism as they are as ridiculous as looking to Hollywood movies for parenting or relationship advice.

These articles are false flags, and I feel extremely sorry for both Petronella and Allison if either of them genuinely thought that the dinner party chat feminism they dished out to each other was something they should use to make life decisions.

How could they have been so taken in?

Because men validated them by printing their paper thin concepts as to what feminism was and is about? Confused

AP's araticle is at https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/04/30/women-childless-problem-not-feminism-petronella-wyatt/

Can also be read at https://archive.ph/ShFu4

(As I said I didn't read the other thread and hope that nobody on that thread ever go sucked down the rabbit hole of media feminism. Is it any wonder that feminism is so ridiculed and ignored by the media when they have been able to get women to churn out this individualistic nonsense?!! Grin)

Link to other thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5062678-feminism-has-left-middle-aged-women-like-me-single-childless-and-depressed

I’m sorry but I can’t quite get my head around your issue with the first article, I didn’t read the article written by Boris’s ex. It is a very real and balanced take on a perplexing conundrum. I will say the same to this as I say to the idea of trans humanism. We are a mammalian species, biological, many of our instincts and responses are hardwired into us, many have a biochemical basis. Many women do get to a certain age and begin to crave reproduction, not all but plenty.

We are designed to procreate in our twenties, that’s when our bodies are at their best reproductive capacity and when the best quality offspring will be produced, that’s just a fact of biology. It’s well known and accepted that a woman’s fertility falls off a cliff when she hits thirty, that’s also a fact of life and the chances of having say a Down’s syndrome child for example, goes through the roof. Like many other species we are also hardwired to pair up, mostly female to male, and to work in groups, that’s just part of millions of years of our evolution.

Decades ago, as feminism itself was evolving, there was a a choice to be made, elevate the position of the female function in society, the biological reality of most females, ie motherhood, or compete with the men. The route mainstream feminism took was to compete with the men. So many of us groaned in despair, we saw the problems that trying to be faux men could cause, nobody would listen. Instead of fighting for recognition and respect for women’s concerns and priorities and the crucial role we play in raising the next generation, middle class and elite women in particular, threw mothers and women who wanted to have children and raise them themselves, under the bus. They had never needed to be hands on mums as they tended to send their children off to boarding school or hand them over to nannies. Working class women have always had to work outside of the home while raising families, usually in menial low paid jobs.

It’s great to have choices, of course it is, but the pendulum swung too hard the other way. Governments took advantage of it and created a society where one wage is nowhere near enough to raise a family on, and now despite what many say, a woman who wants to stay at home and raise her kids is seen as unintelligent, lazy or freeloading. The government also pushes that narrative, particularly to working class women. So many women will say “I’m just a housewife” or “I’m just a stay at home mum”. She’s raising the next generation ffs! She’s not delegating the raising of her children to someone else, the mother child dyad is real and it’s important, or it should be.

If you are a working mother raising a family then what quality time are you spending with your children every day, are you taking the time to let them know that you enjoy them, that you listen to their concerns? I doubt it in the two hours between getting home from work and their bedtime. Many children are parked in front of the tv or handed an iPad. Most working mothers are frazzled, many are working full time and still doing the bulk of the child rearing and household chores. They are usually the ones getting up in the night when the child’s unwell, they are the ones arranging play dates and making costumes for the school play or taking the child to Brownies or Cubs. Women really were sold the idea of having it all, especially in the eighties and nineties, with its sharp corporate suits, shoulder pads and all. Adverts, soaps etc, all selling the idea of the have it all working mum. None of it based in reality.

The chickens are coming home to roost as many of us knew that they would. Men are now colonising womanhood and actual women have been relegated to being an idea in a mans head, dresses, long hair and make up, things we saw our randy boyfriends do during the glam rock era. Women are being replaced on committees by men who have gone through male puberty and whose lived experience has been totally male, they are being relied on to provide a “ female point of view” as if they could have any real knowledge or experience of what that would be. It’s ludicrous and is a direct result of modern so called feminism, that thinks it’s role is to fight for everyone except women and especially not mothers, it prefers to erase us.

I see so many of my childless friends cast envious eyes at me when I’m surrounded by my children and my grandchildren, there are times I envy their holidays and days out but I know that some of them are filled with regret, they did want kids but they were busy building careers and just never got round to it, now they feel that they made a mistake. For some lucky women it works out but they are probably the exception rather than the rule, too many have discovered that you really can’t have it all.
Sorry for the essay, but it just drives me nuts that women seem to be going backwards in terms of rights, freedoms and quality of life. It wasn’t supposed to be like this.

ZeldaFighter · 02/05/2024 10:00

Ooh, now I feel guilty for being a lot less compassionate than Allison 😞

Teddleshon · 02/05/2024 10:08

I found Petronella Wyatt’s article very sad and moving. I have never had any time for her writing but that’s beside the point.

Albatrossing · 02/05/2024 16:21

Yes, it's such an odd depiction of feminism. There seems to be a real muddling of feminism with capitalism -- the choice to prioritise a high-earning career and getting all of our self-worth from that is surely as close (or far closer?) to capitalism than feminism.

I don't like PW's writing, but perhaps AP showing some solidarity with her is an act of feminist solidarity (even if she might deny it). I don't like the way either of them have blamed a concept for something that's systemic, and seem to be blaming a whole generation of women who fought for equality as creating a system and society that doesn't really work. Annoying.

Oh and re PW shagging Boris Johnson -- i've sadly slept with some arseholes in my time. I don't think that should define anyone.

Dumbo12 · 02/05/2024 16:39

I'm somewhat confused about people being unable to understand the concept of feminism as being one of choice. The older women who taught at my all girls grammar school in the 70's, had the choice of marriage or work, as younger women. Feminism and increased bodily autonomy, gave me those choices.

Dineasair · 02/05/2024 17:16

Dumbo12 · 02/05/2024 16:39

I'm somewhat confused about people being unable to understand the concept of feminism as being one of choice. The older women who taught at my all girls grammar school in the 70's, had the choice of marriage or work, as younger women. Feminism and increased bodily autonomy, gave me those choices.

Edited

The patriarchy has managed to structure society in a way that ensures that you don’t really have much of a choice. Too often, particularly in working class and even in lower middle income households, one wage is just not going to cut it. A mother has to go back to work if her family wants a decent standard of living. There’s also the subtle societal pressure of being seen as “ less” if you stay at home, of losing relevance and becoming invisible.

BeaRF75 · 02/05/2024 17:31

Dumbo12 · 02/05/2024 16:39

I'm somewhat confused about people being unable to understand the concept of feminism as being one of choice. The older women who taught at my all girls grammar school in the 70's, had the choice of marriage or work, as younger women. Feminism and increased bodily autonomy, gave me those choices.

Edited

This is absolutely the point. Neither AP nor PW seem to understand that many middle-aged women are completely happy with their choices to be single and/or childfree. It is so depressing that in 2024 we have successful female journalists telling us that - in order to be fulfilled - we all need to be married and mothers. F* off! Maybe they are writing at the direction of editors and proprietors, but it is judgemental tosh.

Dineasair · 02/05/2024 17:32

Albatrossing · 02/05/2024 16:21

Yes, it's such an odd depiction of feminism. There seems to be a real muddling of feminism with capitalism -- the choice to prioritise a high-earning career and getting all of our self-worth from that is surely as close (or far closer?) to capitalism than feminism.

I don't like PW's writing, but perhaps AP showing some solidarity with her is an act of feminist solidarity (even if she might deny it). I don't like the way either of them have blamed a concept for something that's systemic, and seem to be blaming a whole generation of women who fought for equality as creating a system and society that doesn't really work. Annoying.

Oh and re PW shagging Boris Johnson -- i've sadly slept with some arseholes in my time. I don't think that should define anyone.

I think feminism has been incorporated so thoroughly into capitalism that it has totally lost sight of its original purpose, to fight for the rights of females.

I think that this may have started at Greenham Common, when some of the women were bribed to give up the fight in return for the first university women’s studies courses, they then turned on their erstwhile sisters and began to criticise them. Since then the feminist cause has been gradually taken over, mostly due to the need for funding. It’s taken less than thirty years for the women’s studies courses to be turned into “gender studies” and it’s been downhill all the way ever since.

When government gets involved organisations have to jump through political hoops to get funding, and the minute corporate interest gets involved, ethics go out of the window, happens every time.

Dumbo12 · 02/05/2024 17:38

Dineasair · 02/05/2024 17:16

The patriarchy has managed to structure society in a way that ensures that you don’t really have much of a choice. Too often, particularly in working class and even in lower middle income households, one wage is just not going to cut it. A mother has to go back to work if her family wants a decent standard of living. There’s also the subtle societal pressure of being seen as “ less” if you stay at home, of losing relevance and becoming invisible.

Indeed, but that is not the fault of feminism, it isn't anything to do with feminism. The responsibility is with the patriarchy and capitalism and idiots who keep confusing them and blaming feminism for their own poor choices.

Dineasair · 02/05/2024 18:21

Dumbo12 · 02/05/2024 17:38

Indeed, but that is not the fault of feminism, it isn't anything to do with feminism. The responsibility is with the patriarchy and capitalism and idiots who keep confusing them and blaming feminism for their own poor choices.

perhaps I should have been more specific and distinguished between the different factions. I was talking about modern intersectial feminism that has been co-opted and has prioritised the interests of other groups to the detriment of the only group of people it should be focusing on, females.

Modern “intersectional” feminism puts the interest of other groups before the interests of actual females, to the extent of cheering on the erasure of the female sex. Almost all established feminist organisations have capitulated to this and now feminists who prioritise women are called radicals, and are having to start from scratch and form their own groups, you couldn’t make it up!

Dumbo12 · 02/05/2024 18:35

@Dineasair
Surely these women, in their fifties, made their initial choices at least 25 years ago, more likely 30 years ago, when feminism meant centering women? When the whole damn point of it was the ability to make choices.

PTSDBarbiegirl · 02/05/2024 18:37

Otterly2 · 01/05/2024 07:59

🙄

Blaming and tarring as untrustworthy a woman he once lied to and manipulated, how not to do Feminism. Have you heard her speak about him and how he treated her?

Dineasair · 02/05/2024 19:17

Dumbo12 · 02/05/2024 18:35

@Dineasair
Surely these women, in their fifties, made their initial choices at least 25 years ago, more likely 30 years ago, when feminism meant centering women? When the whole damn point of it was the ability to make choices.

They made their choices based on the zeitgeist of the time, when certain elements of feminism were pushing the idea that women could do anything that men could do and that we absolutely could have it all. That was the faction that grew into modern intersectional feminism.

Some of my friends did actually want to be mothers but just left it too late. We weren’t warned about the drop in fertility or the difficulty in carrying a pregnancy to term when your older, and we didn’t know about it. Some did have babies later in life, but most didn’t manage it.

The expectation was also that child care and work inside the home would be shared equally, well that didn’t happen for many women. Even when the man was willing, babies and small children want their mum when they don’t feel well, and we know now that there is a biological basis for that, they just don’t feel the same comfort from snuggling dad.

When the narrative and the prevailing judgements are that you don’t have value unless you work outside the home then that does actually work to constrain choice as that perception becomes a sort of social imperative.

I just wish that instead of just trying to be the same as the men to elevate the perception of women in society, they had also worked to raise perception of the value of women’s unique contribution to society, then it would be a real choice. Why would you choose something that benefits you less economically and imparts a social stigma at the same time? I don’t see that as a true and free choice.

Cherryon · 02/05/2024 19:24

While I don’t agree with those two articles at all, it is very unfeminist to claim that the female authors are not writing their own opinion but are talking sock puppets of a man.

Would you apply your same illogic to every woman with an opinion that happens to have a male boss?

Does a male boss automatically turn women into tools of the patriarchy?

Out of curiosity, are there any men in your chain of supervision? Because if you work for a man, even if he is your boss’ boss or higher, then how can we trust you are not his sock puppet?

Dineasair · 02/05/2024 19:56

BeaRF75 · 02/05/2024 17:31

This is absolutely the point. Neither AP nor PW seem to understand that many middle-aged women are completely happy with their choices to be single and/or childfree. It is so depressing that in 2024 we have successful female journalists telling us that - in order to be fulfilled - we all need to be married and mothers. F* off! Maybe they are writing at the direction of editors and proprietors, but it is judgemental tosh.

i don’t believe that’s actually what she said, I think that you are taking what was a heartfelt opinion based on personal experience and turning it into a judgement. Many people do feel the way that she describes, do all women who have made that choice feel like that? Of course not, but many do, and that’s what she was talking about.

She was also talking about the way in which we were sold the idea that you can have it all and how difficult that is in reality, well nigh impossible. Are you of the opinion that women don’t have the right to feel what they feel, that they can’t regret the path not taken, when they didn’t really understand what that path might entail? That was the crux of her article.

PriOn1 · 03/05/2024 08:25

Dumbo12 · 02/05/2024 18:35

@Dineasair
Surely these women, in their fifties, made their initial choices at least 25 years ago, more likely 30 years ago, when feminism meant centering women? When the whole damn point of it was the ability to make choices.

I’m that in my fifties woman.

I’m divorced and will have to work till I’m 67 because I failed at having a career and children.

The choices were poisoned challices and my body and mind have both been damaged.

My mother had it much better than me because nobody had the stupid expectation that she ought to be able to pull off the impossible task of doing both.

RayonSunrise · 03/05/2024 09:17

Huh. I'm married, have a good career, and will still need to work until my late 60s/early 70s because pensions and NHS care were originally designed to support people who died in their 70s, not live through to 90 or more.

I am quite tired of seeing women's rights made out to be a problem. Blaming feminism for house prices is another one that makes my eyes roll.

Dumbo12 · 03/05/2024 09:49

@RayonSunrise absolutely agree.
@PriOn1 I am early 60's never married, but did have a long term relationship, now retired from work. I made the decision not to have children, as I believed that a child deserved to have a parent at home till the child was 10 or 11 and that wasn't going to be me and I didn't trust my chap to stick around to do the job well.
I made choices because it was glaringly obvious that if one did "have it all" someone was going to be paying the price.

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