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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shadow justice secretary agrees with JK Rowling over gender critical views

123 replies

IwantToRetire · 23/04/2024 00:51

The Labour shadow justice secretary has said she agrees with JK Rowling that “biological sex is real and is immutable”.

Shabana Mahmood, the shadow justice secretary, expressed support for women who express gender critical views, saying that they should not be “stigmatised” for saying them.

Ms Mahmood, who took up the role last September, used her first major speech to warn of the dangers of “the rule of the mob” when “the rule of law fails”.

“Hashtag movements are sometimes used to shut down debate and often many women have had to go to court, usually in employment tribunals, in order to clarify their rights to free speech.

“To clarify their right to believe that for example because you referenced JK Rowling, clarify their right to say that biological sex is real and is immutable – a position that I also agree with.

“But they shouldn’t be in the position of losing their jobs for having views that are perfectly legal, and that they are perfectly entitled to express.”

These are extracts from an article on MSN based on an article in the Telegraph. Not had time to compare copy.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/shadow-justice-secretary-agrees-with-jk-rowling-over-gender-critical-views/ar-AA1ntt5J

JK Rowling is rightly turning her fury against those who colluded in the trans nightmare

The Cass review isn’t the end of the fight. Gender ideology must be banished from schools

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/18/jk-rowling-turning-fury-against-colluded-trans-nightmare/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
LizzieSiddal · 23/04/2024 07:54

That’s amazing. We need to hear more of this sort of thing from Labour.

aberamagold · 23/04/2024 08:07

nauticant · 23/04/2024 06:42

She's actually had this position for a while. This is from an interview she did with The Times a year ago:

Another issue likely to figure in the general election is trans rights. “It is of legitimate concern for women that their rights in law to sex-segregated spaces, to their safety, to their dignity, are respected,” Mahmood says. “I don’t think it’s appropriate for anybody to try and imply that their worries or their concerns are non-existent, or not real, or that they are motivated by bad faith.”

Labour is committed to single-sex spaces, she says, including in the prison system, in domestic violence refuges, and sport. She welcomes the review of the Equality Act triggered this week by Kemi Badenoch and the Equality and Human Rights Commission, saying that when Labour passed the legislation “there was an acceptance that in most scenarios the law would treat trans women exactly the same as women but there would also be other scenarios in which it’s appropriate for there to be a distinction between what trans women can access and what women can access”.

I’d like to know in what scenarios she thinks it would be appropriate to treat transwomen exactly the same as women but differently from other men.

Signalbox · 23/04/2024 08:11

Coward creeping out of the woodwork now it’s safe. Did she ever defend Rosie Duffield?

I don’t really think this is helpful. It’s still nowhere near safe yet for women to state they believe in reality. You only have to look at what happened to Hilary Cass last week to see that. Although politicians should be open about what they believe on such an important issue I’ve no doubt that the level of abuse that Shabana Mahmood receives for being a female politician is about to quadruple.

Chrysanthemum5 · 23/04/2024 08:14

I'm pleased to see this but despair of the men in Labour hiding behind women colleagues until the battle is won. And I know Wes Streeting has been vocal recently but he's just smarter than the others - when it wasn't safe to say these things he was as misogynistic as the rest so I doubt his sincerity

BlueBrush · 23/04/2024 08:16

Signalbox · 23/04/2024 08:11

Coward creeping out of the woodwork now it’s safe. Did she ever defend Rosie Duffield?

I don’t really think this is helpful. It’s still nowhere near safe yet for women to state they believe in reality. You only have to look at what happened to Hilary Cass last week to see that. Although politicians should be open about what they believe on such an important issue I’ve no doubt that the level of abuse that Shabana Mahmood receives for being a female politician is about to quadruple.

Completely agree. Good to hear you express this view, Shabana, and in such a clear unamiguous way, and I don't doubt it still takes courage.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 23/04/2024 08:20

LizzieSiddal · 23/04/2024 07:54

That’s amazing. We need to hear more of this sort of thing from Labour.

We do

i would like more labour MPs to say what they think about this…it would go some way to taking the wind out of the torys sails

but for a definite vote its going to take a wee bit more, apologies from Nandy and Lammy for being fucking idiots would be a start, acknowledging the lack of support labour had for people who did speak out etc

thats obviously not going to happen but I live in hope

ErrolTheDragon · 23/04/2024 08:27

I’d like to know in what scenarios she thinks it would be appropriate to treat transwomen exactly the same as women but differently from other men.

Well yes. “there was an acceptance that in most scenarios the law would treat trans women exactly the same as women but there would also be other scenarios in which it’s appropriate for there to be a distinction between what trans women can access and what women can access”. ...that's 100% true. Because in most scenarios all people should be treated the same, with no discrimination or privilege on the basis of how they present or feel. And then there's a limited, but crucial set of scenarios where sex matters.

IDoNotConsentToAstonResearch · 23/04/2024 08:36

ErrolTheDragon · 23/04/2024 08:27

I’d like to know in what scenarios she thinks it would be appropriate to treat transwomen exactly the same as women but differently from other men.

Well yes. “there was an acceptance that in most scenarios the law would treat trans women exactly the same as women but there would also be other scenarios in which it’s appropriate for there to be a distinction between what trans women can access and what women can access”. ...that's 100% true. Because in most scenarios all people should be treated the same, with no discrimination or privilege on the basis of how they present or feel. And then there's a limited, but crucial set of scenarios where sex matters.

Yes, the scenarios where there is no problem with transwomen behaving like women (eg dress) tend to be things where the law has no business getting involved.

stickygotstuck · 23/04/2024 08:58

Thank you for posting this OP.

Well done Shabhana Mahmood for sticking your head over the parapet.

Sausagenbacon · 23/04/2024 09:41

I assume that Labour will win the next GE with a stonking majority, and I'll be interested to see what happens after that.
There are still a lot of Labour MPs who side with TRAs and I see a big, public fight post-election. And I have no confidence in the outcome.

ArabellaScott · 23/04/2024 09:43

Good for her. I wonder when/if Starmer will develop a bit of backbone on the issue.

theDudesmummy · 23/04/2024 09:47

If Starmer and co start to ferret, although I will not forgive them (especially Lammysaurus and the cervix) I will consider voting Labour. Just consider.

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 23/04/2024 09:48

Thank you Shabana Mahmood - excellent that there are some brave politicans of integrity in Labour but what she says is very much at odds with Starmer's 1% of women have a penis. It'd be nice if she were leader instead, would also help to show Labour is moving away from its misogyny problem.

I'm hopeful that these brilliant women politicians such as Mahmood and Badenoch can create a cross party consensus and momentum to move to a safeguarding first position for children when it comes to the importance of biological sex for safeguarding and the dangers of cultish adherence to unscientific gender woo across public institutions.

fromorbit · 23/04/2024 09:55

Shabana Mahmood is a longstanding supporter of Labour Women's Declaration and appeared on a panel with a bunch of other pesky women at the last Labour conference :

https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/lwd-hosting-two-fringe-meetings-at-labour-conference-2023/

She is a liberal Muslim and is rather more representative of British Muslims ideas on gender and sex than lets say Humza in Scotland.

More to the point Kier really likes her and they get on another barrister. She was Labour Party National Campaign Coordinator under him and did a great job, lots more election wins and was appointed to front bench last September. She is a rising star in the party. Note she was never a Corbynite which is a plus with current leadership.

Shabana Mahmood is one reason why when Labour gets into power the TRAs will have serious issues. The bungled reaction to Cass report is really damaging their position within Labour. There are battles to come, but the Pro-woman faction in Labour has a huge advantage - reality. If there is open debate sooner or later the side that believes women exist are going to win. Especially as the TRA side does self sabotage.

The real big Labour name who knows women are real by all accounts is Rachel Reeves, the Shadow Chancellor. She hasn't declared openly, but plenty of hints are out there. Reeves is a political machine. As she is going to be controlling the purse strings that is a big thing. Telling quote from Reeves in 2022 here:

One issue she has clearly done some reflecting on is the angst-ridden subject of transgenderism. When asked about women and cervixes last year by the radio host Nick Ferrari, Reeves stumbled, one of many Labour politicians struggling to find a suitable answer. She has one now, though — rejecting the mantra that trans women are women for a punchy, more JK Rowlingy position.“Biology is important,” she says. “A woman is somebody with a biology that is different from a man’s biology. We’re seeing in sport sensible decisions being made about who cannot compete in certain cases.” She says she would “have a problem” with someone with male genitals identifying as a woman and using a female changing space, and isn’t entirely sold on the use of gender pronouns. “You don’t have to say to someone, ‘Shall I call you he or she?’ — it’s pretty obvious. But there are also difficult cases of somebody who is born as one sex and defines as another. I wouldn’t want to deny their right to define themselves in the way they want to be defined.”

You may ask why isn't Reeves saying stuff more obviously. The same reason TRAs started by being seeming reasonable, and got a long way then got greedy. Reeves is interested in power, real power. She is moves ahead of the TRAs in that. Become the first female Chancellor first without making too much fuss then you have room to manoeuvre later. Mysteriously then it seems there is little budget for Stonewall stuff. I wonder why....

"The former British girls’ chess champion has the political hunger of someone with a point to prove. In a joint New Statesman interview with her sister Ellie, a fellow Labour MP and shadow justice minister, Reeves said: “What I feel very strongly is that because we were constantly underestimated, we need to prove that two girls from state school in south London are just as good as any Eton or Winchester boy.” As Labour prepares for government, no one today should underestimate the influence of Rachel Reeves."

LWD Hosting Two Fringe Meetings at Labour Conference 2023

LWD Hosting Two Fringe Meetings at Labour Conference 2023 - Labour Women's Declaration

LWD is hosting two fringe meetings at #Lab23 conference in Liverpool.

https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/lwd-hosting-two-fringe-meetings-at-labour-conference-2023

Soigneur · 23/04/2024 09:56

LargeSquareRock · 23/04/2024 01:12

Coward creeping out of the woodwork now it’s safe. Did she ever defend Rosie Duffield?

Suppose we TERFs have to be the bigger people and let people cross the golden bridge. But jeez. It’s hard.

Would you describe all the GC women who post on here about their concerns of being ‘outed’ in their workplaces as cowards?

And in any case Shabana has long expressed GC views and is lumped in with Rosie Duffield by the likes of PinkNews.

Crankywiddershins · 23/04/2024 10:02

Well that's great news! Well done Shabana. But I'd like to hear from Kier Starmer more Labour MPs and see some actual apologies for Rosie Duffield and Tonia Antoniazzi before I fully believe them.

MorrisZapp · 23/04/2024 10:08

GoodOldEmmaNess · 23/04/2024 07:44

That's wonderful. I guess that if Labour is trying to move around to a less crazy position in this debate they have to plan a series of contributions from various MPs/Shadow ministers, etc. So I hope this is an ''authorised' comment and a sign of things to come.

Please don't call her cowardly, though. For one thing it is genuinely terrifying to be a woman in public life and to make comments in this arena. For another, this whole situation isn't about winning an internet war and feeling angry, vindicated, etc. It is about reversing an incredibly damaging set of public policies. That is best done by avoiding horrible polemical hostility.

Couldn't agree more. We campaigned for change, we wanted people and institutions to change. Now we have to let them change.

napody · 23/04/2024 10:09

Thank you Shabana. Very brave of you, even post Cass review you have so much more to lose than a Tory in speaking out.

I feel hopeful. It feels strange.....

Ingenieur · 23/04/2024 10:20

The sun in shining in TERF Island today

Imnobody4 · 23/04/2024 10:34

I have a lot of respect for Shabana. But I haven't heard anything from Anneliese Dodds yet. Shouldn't there have been a statement from her or have I missed it.
In Oct last year a t Women's Party Conference she said
MP for Oxford East Anneliese Dodds has promised a “no loopholes”, trans-inclusive ban on conversion therapy, if Labour are power at the next general election.

During her speech, Dodds also said people responsible for anti-LGBTQ+ hate crime would receive the “tougher sentences they deserve” in a bid to show “everyone deserves to be accepted without exception and treated with respect and dignity”.

Snowypeaks · 23/04/2024 10:39

fromorbit · 23/04/2024 09:55

Shabana Mahmood is a longstanding supporter of Labour Women's Declaration and appeared on a panel with a bunch of other pesky women at the last Labour conference :

https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/lwd-hosting-two-fringe-meetings-at-labour-conference-2023/

She is a liberal Muslim and is rather more representative of British Muslims ideas on gender and sex than lets say Humza in Scotland.

More to the point Kier really likes her and they get on another barrister. She was Labour Party National Campaign Coordinator under him and did a great job, lots more election wins and was appointed to front bench last September. She is a rising star in the party. Note she was never a Corbynite which is a plus with current leadership.

Shabana Mahmood is one reason why when Labour gets into power the TRAs will have serious issues. The bungled reaction to Cass report is really damaging their position within Labour. There are battles to come, but the Pro-woman faction in Labour has a huge advantage - reality. If there is open debate sooner or later the side that believes women exist are going to win. Especially as the TRA side does self sabotage.

The real big Labour name who knows women are real by all accounts is Rachel Reeves, the Shadow Chancellor. She hasn't declared openly, but plenty of hints are out there. Reeves is a political machine. As she is going to be controlling the purse strings that is a big thing. Telling quote from Reeves in 2022 here:

One issue she has clearly done some reflecting on is the angst-ridden subject of transgenderism. When asked about women and cervixes last year by the radio host Nick Ferrari, Reeves stumbled, one of many Labour politicians struggling to find a suitable answer. She has one now, though — rejecting the mantra that trans women are women for a punchy, more JK Rowlingy position.“Biology is important,” she says. “A woman is somebody with a biology that is different from a man’s biology. We’re seeing in sport sensible decisions being made about who cannot compete in certain cases.” She says she would “have a problem” with someone with male genitals identifying as a woman and using a female changing space, and isn’t entirely sold on the use of gender pronouns. “You don’t have to say to someone, ‘Shall I call you he or she?’ — it’s pretty obvious. But there are also difficult cases of somebody who is born as one sex and defines as another. I wouldn’t want to deny their right to define themselves in the way they want to be defined.”

You may ask why isn't Reeves saying stuff more obviously. The same reason TRAs started by being seeming reasonable, and got a long way then got greedy. Reeves is interested in power, real power. She is moves ahead of the TRAs in that. Become the first female Chancellor first without making too much fuss then you have room to manoeuvre later. Mysteriously then it seems there is little budget for Stonewall stuff. I wonder why....

"The former British girls’ chess champion has the political hunger of someone with a point to prove. In a joint New Statesman interview with her sister Ellie, a fellow Labour MP and shadow justice minister, Reeves said: “What I feel very strongly is that because we were constantly underestimated, we need to prove that two girls from state school in south London are just as good as any Eton or Winchester boy.” As Labour prepares for government, no one today should underestimate the influence of Rachel Reeves."

Thanks.
Now that is the kind of information that would persuade GC women to vote Labour. It looks like movement in the right direction.

Great statement by Shabana Mahmood but I need to feel that KS will not stymie her.

Trust is still an issue.

Mycatsmudge · 23/04/2024 10:43

I think Sajid Javid the former health secretary who commissioned the Cass Review should be thanked and acknowledged in bringing this scandal to a halt. It’s a shame he is leaving parliament at the next election as he does show good judgement and integrity. This is what he said the the BBC regarding the GIDs clinic

‘’When I was briefed on the NHS’s Tavistock Gender Identity Development Service (Gids) for the first time, I knew this was not just another policy area but a child protection issue and huge medical scandal in the making.
As Secretary of State for Health and Social Care at the time, I instructed officials to provide all available support to Dr Hilary Cass, the chair of the Independent Review into Gids. I introduced legislation to support her investigation, and months later, backed the recommendations of the interim report.
She has demonstrated exceptional courage throughout and today, her final report is published. Whilst the findings are not surprising, they are no less sickening. Quite simply, ideology replaced the best interests of children, thousands of whom have now been failed in this modern-day scandal.
At every opportunity, and in each department I served in, I tried to advance the cause of child protection. In this case, the source of lessons lies within both the clinical practice, and political culture which enabled it to persist for so long. Unless each is resolved, more children will be harmed.
In any other setting it is hard to imagine a patient meeting a doctor and the patient telling them what their diagnosis is. Yet the approach of self-diagnoses was the medical pathway adopted at Gids. This resulted in clinicians not showing enough interest in other potential factors, including trauma, social influence, sexual abuse or different conditions. Take the example of autism, which we know about 2 per cent of children in the UK are thought to have. At Gids, a review found that about 35 per cent had moderate or severe autistic traits.
Compounding this was the widespread prescription of puberty blockers. Thankfully, that practice in the NHS is changing, but huge loopholes remain in the system. Both private clinics and prescriptions ordered from abroad remain significant problems. In the case of prescriptions, someone could simply order them online to any pharmacy in the country.’’

Merrymouse · 23/04/2024 10:45

Really happy about this, particularly that she specifically agreed with JKR.

teawamutu · 23/04/2024 11:08

I'm watching Reeves and Mahmood with interest. If they're not slapped down, if Starmer finds his spine and signals support, and - most importantly - if in some way Rosie Duffield is brought back into the fold, I will be able to vote Labour again.

Crankywiddershins · 23/04/2024 11:12

On reflection I'd be willing to forgive (but not forget) Starmer's cowardice if he were to make Rosie Shadow Women and Equality Minister.

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