Anyone else seeing fewer pronouns in the workplace?

[Pedestrian0]

I work in a large Stonewalled organisation. A couple of years ago everyone was fully 'she/her/hers' on Teams and in emails but I've noticed a real drop off recently and I'm so pleased. I think/hope people are getting a bit tired of the silly business. Now the pronoun-staters are very definitely in a minority.

I can also confidently say that pronouns on Teams or email have NEVER enhanced any interaction I've had at the company over the past five years. I've seen one they/them and frankly everyone referred to the obvious male as 'he' if we have reason to refer to him when he isn't around. It's not malicious, it's just the obvious pronoun to use for an obvious male. Everyone else just has sex-based pronouns. But - if you can't tell by the beard and obviously male features you can tell by the name 'John'. No need for the he/hims. It's really just virtue signalling and makes me eyeroll a lot.

I like that it's dropping away because the fewer people who do it, the more it'll drop out of fashion. But is it just my work or is anyone else seeing this?

I know several people who have become fluent and accurate speakers of English in adulthood, indistinguishable from a native speaker.

Fluent and accurate, I can believe. Indistinguishable from a native speaker - I don't, unless we are talking languages that are closely related, e.g. Spanish and Portuguese.

Even Dutch and German, which are categorised as the same language (linguists categorise Dutch as a dialect of German, though it's best not to mention this in Amsterdam...) have subtle differences, which adult learners find hard to reproduce. The Dutch resistance in WW2 famously used certain Dutch place names to flush out German infiltrators, because Germans cannot manage the some of the guttural sounds of Dutch.

I just wanted to pop back onto this because I had a large external meeting today with professionals from various companies. Over 100 of us and I counted and there were only six with stated pronouns. HOORAY! A win for common sense.

Sadly, all of those six people were women. Clearly the 'be kind' mantra is leaving its legacy yet again. And all those six women had traditionally feminine names like Sarah and Julia and all clearly visibly female as well.

But overall... yay for the back end of this bullshit.

It's a simply inaccurate belief. There are languages with sounds which, if you do not hear them as an infant or toddler, as an adult you can't hear them at all. It's not just that you can't reproduce them, you actually can't hear them at all.

In any case - part of learning English would be learning that there are regional variations in accent that will influence how people say words, including names. If I went to another country and kicked up a stink because almost everyone puts the accent on the second syllable instead of the first, I'd be an asshole. It's not that they would be rude.

Shouldn't your company be pushing the message that if a name is not familiar to you, instead of assuming a gender you should give it a swift Google

What about a name like Navdeep? Can be male or female. So googling it won't work. I think Sahar can be both, too.

What a surprise.

Slow hand clap to your friend for working it out

So true about the dodgy phonetic spellings of names in email signatures not working with different British accents. Saw one recently: HORL for someone's bog standard surname. Their actual name? No Rs to be seen.

I know!

The day I got my doctorate and no longer had to use Mrs was a great day - because people could no longer assume my sex and the difference it made in how I was treated and the level of respect I was given at least initially in various settings was stark. Same with Professor.

No way I am going backwards.

I imagine gender-neutral names (Kiran is another one I think) would be the exception rather than the rule - but in those cases probably best to avoid gendering them in an email. That's when they/them is actually valid and useful - or it's pretty easy just to use someone's name.

'I'll be sure to get in touch with Navdeep about that'. 'Thanks for linking me up with Sahar. I'm sure we're going to be able to support that project.'

By the way, it's just occurred to me that our Outlook comes with little photos as well. They take them on your first day at work and I look all red and stressed haha.

I work with an entire team of menopausal angry feminists. No chance of any of us subscribing to this nonsense. We know what being a real woman is.

I have been heartened over the last few years in the trenches though, as I have regularly attended national Zoom meetings with 200+ people, and the number of pronoun wankers on the call has always been low and never gained traction. The silent majority also know you can’t change sex and lying to yourself is ultimately degrading and makes you look stupid.

Heartening to hear this @Screamingabdabz

It's a simply inaccurate belief. There are languages with sounds which, if you do not hear them as an infant or toddler, as an adult you can't hear them at all. It's not just that you can't reproduce them, you actually can't hear them at all.

That's my experience with my name, actually with both first and second name. My first name is the German version of a name of Greek origin and my last name has an Umlaut. In the almost 30 years I have now lived in English speaking countries I have met one native English speaker who can pronounce my first name correctly. Almost all people who I have tried teaching to say it can't even hear the difference.

@Screamingabdabz love your name!

I have a German friend who once said something to me about how she doesn't have an accent anymore and how people 'look surprised' when they learn she's not English. Her English is impeccable but she absolutely does have an accent! I didn't have the heart to tell her.

I would say -- whether language learners can speak a foreign language to the point where their pronunciation, accent, intonation, etc. are indistinguishable from those of native speakers really depend on when they have started learning the language, what the language is and how long they have actively participated in an environment where the target language is the primary language.

For some languages such a thing may not be linguistically/biologically feasible, but as there are thousands of living languages in the world, I am not certain even linguists can categorically assert that it is impossible for every language.

Admittedly, it does appear to be exceptionally difficult/nearly impossible for many adult learners of certain languages.

I would say -- whether language learners can speak a foreign language to the point where their pronunciation, accent, intonation, etc. are indistinguishable from those of native speakers really depend on when they have started learning the language

And, to some extent, where.

My son's French teacher at school learnt her English in Yorkshire. The result was enough to confuse people into thinking she was from 'somewhere north' rather than France.

And it's not just about actual pronunciation but also intonation, syllable-stress and rhythm. My French cousins, who have spoken English from early childhood, (though never lived in an English-speaking country) don't really have an accent. You could take any individual English word they say and, individually, they pronounce it like I do. But, when they string words into a sentence, the rhythm is definitely different and, the faster they talk, the more likely they are to start stressing the last syllable, like in French. It is surprisingly difficult to understand them. You don't notice how important rhythm is, until you hear someone getting it 'wrong'.

The same happens in reverse, of course. One reason why French people often struggle to understand Brits speaking French is that we are quite variable about where we place the stress (mimicking English), which sounds wrong to the French, who almost always put the stress at the end.

Yes - I know a Portuguese person who lived in Aberdeen for 10 years and everyone now takes her to be Scottish.

Yes, I have a cousin who is from Quebec. She grew up in a household with a French mother and English father and has spoken both from birth.

Her English has quite a marked French accent.

As a moderately deaf person, I'm actually finding this conversation very interesting. I've experienced some people being quite rude for not catching the subtle nuance in pronunciation of names I'm unfamiliar with - but it sounds like that's not entirely down to my lack of hearing.

Also: pronoun announcements are cringingly desperate. Glad to see this craven behaviour on the back foot.

I'd like to also mention that the people who add their pronouns and phonetic name to their email, often add a BSL version of their name too. They are virtue signalling wankers of the highest order.

I work for an organisation that is a Stonewall Champion. Quite a few people have pronouns and pronunciations in their signatures.

In an EDI meeting this week we had a guest speaker who is non binary and affected by the condition our organisation supports.

The day before the meeting, the guest speaker emailed all attendees a set of "safety slides" to be used at meetings to ensure non-gender conforming people are safeguarded. This included instructions to share pronouns. I was unable to attend the meeting, so planned to watch the recording later. A colleague who did go said they started the meeting by going around the team and taking turns sharing their pronouns.

When I got back to my desk, the teams chat from the meeting popped up, with an explanation for the term "TERF", which had been used in the meeting.

This thread is a reminder that I’m so relieved I am my age and not younger…

Are you recruiting? 👀✍️😃

Funnily enough, I've just been browsing Twitter and noticed that a work-related account that I follow who, along with the useful work-related stuff, was staunchly "be kind", "proud ally" "TWAW" etc, has quietly removed her pronouns at some point over the last few weeks.

This is so great to hear. I had my suspicions but not working & out of the loop. Huzzah!

Germans from the far north of Germany can usually get away with speaking English pretty much without an accent. There will be something at some point that gives them away, but their intonation sounds English.

I once met someone who was speaking perfect German with what sounded to me like an English accent. But she was from Sylt - for those who don't know, an island right up at the top of Germany near the Danish border.

If they come from the far west of the country near the Dutch border, they do have an accent in English but it's very gentle. I think it's fascinating how where they're from in Germany also affects their accent in English.

I was also quite surprised to hear that many people from Quebec have French accents in English. I thought they'd just sound Canadian! They probably do, but with a French twist.