How long will it take before we see this type of reporting in relation to puberty blockers?

[theDudesmummy]

Too long, one suspects. For the infected blood scandal it has taken decades. And that was purely a scientific malpractice situation. It was not scientific malpractice then additionally backed up by an aggressive culture war underpinned by male sexual urges, as today's fight is.

Infected blood scandal: Children were used as 'guinea pigs' in clinical trials - BBC News

I haven't listened yet but they were talking about implications of Cass on media reporting on the R4 media show yesterday

Thanks, will take a listen (it's not up on BBC Sounds yet but will listen as soon as it is).

@theDudesmummy I was thinking along similar lines as I listened to the BBC News last night: that medical people were experimenting on children.

I'm mired in this at present. I see what's been done to Unherd

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5051761-worth-watching-unherd-investigation-inside-the-disinformation-industry-kathleen-stock-specifically-mentioned

and I see the impact of the #BeKind rhetoric that dominates media coverage, even of evidence-based medicine. This has profound consequences for the public understanding of science as well as social contracts.

It's the belief that people have that censorship has the interests of the public at its heart, even if it leads to a loss of freedom, is indicative of manipulation etc. I'm deeply conflicted.

Vinay Prasad has been derided for claiming that public interest is being deployed in a way that could have implications for democracy. I disagree with some of his clinical perspectives and that's not relevant here. Overall, I find this a frameset of conspiracy but I deeply hope that I'm not wrong about this because the consequences for democracy are vast.

The key lesson…is not that the fall of democracy is inevitable, but rather that our policy preferences, and polarization, have set the stage for a series of events where it is possible democracy falls. As Madeleine Albright. says, “While democracy in the long run is the most stable form of government, in the short run, it is among the most fragile.” We must be careful not to create a roadmap to this future with our policy choices today, perhaps we already have.

https://www.drvinayprasad.com/p/how-democracy-ends

That same thought was in my head, OP.

To my mind why we need to really be pushing for a statutory public inquiry

Following Cass, it's time for a Public Inquiry www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/5051743-following-cass-its-time-for-a-public-inquiry

Thanks for posting OP.

As I was reading that article, I was mentally replacing the words with those of the current medical experiment that's taking place WRT gender identity.

I got so upset at the parallels that I had to stop reading part way through, but not before I read the sentence that talked about most of the children who were involved are now dead. These should be adults my age 😢😢

Obviously we don't know yet but from the little that we do know about increased risk of heart-failure (women taking testosterone), cancer (of the uterus in women taking testosterone and of the testes in boys taking puberty blockers), repeated infections and necrosis (complications from surgeries, including a very high prevalence of fistulas in vaginoplasty and a (very?) high number of complications from phaloplasty).... I could go on.... I'm assuming we can expect the same in middle age in this case too. Yes, there will always be a Stephen Whittle exception who shouts down the risk, despite having multiple sclerosis (for which there is a known link with cross-sex hormones) but the parallels are scarily upsetting.

Hugh Pym please get on top of this NOW.

Don't statutory inquiries have secretariats that are seconded from the Civil Service?

If that's accurate, would you trust them?

Yep same here. Was wondering why the BBC, and others, but the BBC has been particularly shit, is apparently unable or unwilling to join the dots here.

*They should be adults my age now

There’s another article on BBC today about ketamine use in the young causing serious bladder problems. It includes this line:

"If we are offering major surgery to a person who's 21, then the likelihood of having any sort of complications after that surgery [in the rest of their lives] - it's enormous," said consultant urologist Dr Carolina Ochoa.

I also found myself reading it as if it were talking about the trans children scandal.

And then felt hopeful that a great many others would make that connection too.

As I was reading that article, I was mentally replacing the words with those of the current medical experiment that's taking place WRT gender identity.

The medical profession has had an utterly bizarre questionable set of perspectives about young children for a long time [part 1]. Until comparatively recently, it was thought that babies didn't really experience pain so they weren't anaesthetised and rarely received adequate pain relief.

The belief that babies' nervous systems were undeveloped and they therefore could not feel pain meant they were not provided with anesthesia as standard practice. Instead, babies were administered muscle relaxants to stop them from moving during invasive procedures.
The belief was the result of years of inadequate studies, many of which suffered from the fact that clinicians struggled to understand the differences in pain responses between fetuses and adults, with this misunderstanding carrying over to newborns.
This was compounded by the fact that studies in the 1940s had incorrectly stated that babies lacked the capability to feel pain after they seemed to be unresponsive to pinpricks. This was later explained by a failure to correctly interpret infant body language.
This wasn't the only reason painkillers were withheld from babies, however. Physicians also had concerns about the safety of such medical interventions, fearing that giving strong anesthetics to infants may kill them, especially those that were seriously ill.
Though many hospitals had begun administering anesthesia to infants on the operating table as early as the 1970s, surveys of medical professionals conducted as recently as 1986 indicated that infants younger than 15 months were still receiving no pain relief during surgery in many hospitals across the U.S.
It was in 1987 that the tide against this practice began to change and the medical profession started to listen to mothers who insisted their infants could indeed feel pain.

https://www.newsweek.com/when-doctors-start-using-anesthesia-babies-medics-thought-they-couldnt-feel-pain-1625350

I've posted before about this under god know what old username, but:

My daughter was offered major leg surgery aged about 12-13 to correct a distorted joint. We discussed it at length, talked about whether the pain would be worth it, talked to the school about time off and lift access, rearranged holidays... and then got a second opinion from a surgeon brought in to deal with some of the first surgeon's massive backlog. He said that long-term physio would do an adequate job and that surgery was by no means the better option, or indeed one he would ever have suggested.

His very clear implication was that Surgeon 1 was carried away by his own increasing skill in operating on marginal cases.

The thing that stays with me is that DD was not relieved at the news that she wouldn't need major surgery and weeks in a wheelchair, after 'everyone was expecting it'. Instead, she felt embarrassed and deflated; no longer the special kid bravely facing something extraordinary, but just 'Allie in 8C who has physio again at 11:30'.

I can see parallels here. The first surgeon even pushed us for a rapid decision -- 'because you'll get better results before she's finished growing'.

I think I quoted the wrong post there, but the point holds that major surgery is best avoided where possible.

I think it's coming and expect to see people who have suffered this now will be in the press in 10 - 20 years talking about the damage they have suffered its already happening so it could be sooner even.

I actually know a Dr who worked at a well known Gender Identity Clinic, I'd say in 2019 they were very positive about it all even presenting at various conferences and seemingly pretty please with themselves for being involved in something so "cool". The left and took a different job within the NHS just over a year ago and its clear they are very keen to move on from that period and not discuss it any more. My view is that they saw very clearly which way the wind was blowing and were starting to see the very unfavourable outcomes coming back to bite them.

It still surprises me how unthinkingly and blithely they got involved in it all to begin with very obviously taken with the kudos they felt most people gave them for working in that area, a lot of ego was certainly involves. To be fair most people patted them on the back for what they were doing and I was probably one of the very few who was dubious about it all.

I find the timing of this coverage from the BBC rather suspect.

The medical profession has had an utterly bizarre questionable set of perspectives about young children for a long time [part 2]. This prevents children from being perceived as individuals with their own human rights and for whom informed consent is essential.

Timestamped discussion about the history of the emergence of HIV+/Aids in children and why it was unrecognised and initially written off as "a medical mystery." The focus was on 'blameworthy' adults rather than 'innocent' children and the plausibility of vertical transmission and went off into byways of "innocent victim narratives" rather than assigning useful resources for those children (it took 10 years for a useful federal response). (Jason Chernesky and Janet Golden. Stephen Pemberton talks about haemophilia and tainted blood products.)

Chernesky:

https://www.youtube.com/live/ErmfpWkNt9U?si=tSrUE5i8-ibeueM&t=1115

Golden:

https://www.youtube.com/live/ErmfpWkNt9U?si=IOlbSL1OtATYqHH6&t=1598

I felt that the BBC article was a deliberate move to take the reporting away from the CASS report. It was a dead cat.

If the BBC was trying for dead cat I think they have misfired, I am sure that for many people this article, as it did for me, just screams out the parallels with puberty blockers and makes one think of Cass even more...

I stand out to us but my DH for instance will be as oblivious as usual. Until it's on the BBC the scandal isn't happening for most people.

@theDudesmummy I saw the BBC article and thought someone would start a thread as the parallels are chilling.

Thank you.

It is clear some medical professionals ego’s mean that their achievements are far more important than the child they are treating. Ethics seem to be an inconvenient requirement that they can choose not to adopt.

Another example is the historic treatment of children with DSD where some parents of boys were advised it was best to treat them as girls. Radical surgery was done to effectively neuter them and create female looking genitals.

I say neuter rather than sterilise as they removed the testes meaning at puberty the child needed hormone injections to develop. Obviously they were given female hormones to fit with the Drs theory of what was best.

There is also a horrific study in the US where triplets were split up and given to 3 different families, one from each main socioeconomic group. The triplets each thought they were single births and were subjected to tests at regular intervals. As adults they found out about the experiment and met up. The impact was so great than one committed suicide. Utterly heartbreaking.

This post has blown my mind. As for the argument they didn’t want to anaesthetise babies in case they killed them, have a word with veterinary surgeons who routinely anaesthetise very unwell small animals and manage to bring them round unharmed. It was the dates (70s and 80s) that left me open mouthed. Absolutely shocking.

The report on the contaminated blood products on this morning’s Today programme made me so angry and heartbroken for the children and their families. DH’s lovely colleague died in his early 40s due to a blood borne infection he contracted as a child from these products. It’s hard not see the parallels with the recent PB and cross sex hormone experimentation, which will likely have a similarly long tail of misery for patients and their families. 😞