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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Yousaf: Trans women will be protected by misogyny law

26 replies

IwantToRetire · 17/04/2024 00:51

Humza Yousaf insisted that "anyone affected" by misogyny would be covered, whatever their biological sex.

He also insisted the Scottish government would not spend an "inordinate" amount of time deciding whether to follow the recommendations of the recent Cass Review into gender care.

The Scottish government wants to introduce a bill to tackle misogyny before the end of the current parliamentary term in 2026, following a review carried out by the human rights lawyer Baroness Helena Kennedy KC.

Women were not included in the recent Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021 that was introduced on 1 April - a decision that Mr Yousaf said had followed discussions with a number of women's groups.

When asked whether fresh legislation would cover transgender women, Mr Yousaf said that it would, as whoever was directing misogynistic abuse would be unaware if a woman was trans or not.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw59e7dg2nlo

Before everyone gets caried away by the sheer stupidity of the last paragraph quoted above, always remember that both in UK hate crime law and the new Scottish one, the protected characteristic of sex was not included because some feminist groups told the consultation processes that it wasn't needed / wouldn't work.

And yes, I know the ultimate power is the politicians and who they choose to listen to, but there should be some comeback on the women's groups who thought they could speak for all of us based on their personal politics.

So not only is sex, the fact of which is why most women suffer male violence, as a hate crime not available to women who might need it, but it also in law makes the issue of sex seen to be not as important as race, religion, etc..

And these women who presumed to speak to all of us have now opened the door to a law that will treat biological women and trans women as though they are equivilent.

Humza Yousaf

Yousaf: Trans women will be protected under misogyny law

The first minister says anyone affected by misogyny will be covered, whatever their biological sex.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw59e7dg2nlo

OP posts:
FelineGood76 · 17/04/2024 01:53

Of course they are, why wouldn't they be, trans women are protected from everything. So they are protected under the Hate Bill but also under the misogyny bill. Great.
Also, they seem to spend fucking forever thinking up laws to fuck over actual women, but won't spend " an inordinate " amount of time on recommendations to protect vulnerable children.
Gotcha.

CorruptedCauldron · 17/04/2024 08:26

Misogyny is the hatred or mistrust of women and girls, and/or believing that they are inferior to men. Only females can experience misogyny as it is a form of sexism. Sex, not gender.

Transwomen can experience transphobia which is already covered by the hate bill. They don’t experience misogyny because that is something that only affects the female sex class.

Teentaxidriver · 17/04/2024 08:32

A “decision Mr Yousaf said that had followed discussions with a number of women’s groups” - do you believe what he says about the discussions or do you think that he might be lying????? I mean it would suited him to blame women for their inferior situation. This man is the definition of misogyny and until Scotland is rid of him and the SNP, Scottish women will be undermined, insulted and abused.

Teentaxidriver · 17/04/2024 08:33

Sorry suit not suited

RebelliousCow · 17/04/2024 08:35

There is already a thread operating for this announcement, titled 'Proposed Scottish Misogyny Law'

Calllalllama · 17/04/2024 08:55

So everyone is going to be covered from hate except for able bodied white men?

I would rather add women and I think it's quite funny because much more 'hate speech' is directed at women from 'transactivists' (men). The abuse sent to JK Rowling's twitter feed alone could keep the police tied up with cases for years.
I would much rather live in a free society and not criminalise speech, it is such a terrible use of resources to police it and stifles free speech.

WeeBisom · 17/04/2024 09:34

It doesn’t make logical sense to protect transwomen under the misogyny bill. The protected characteristic for them is “trans”. For example, a black woman has the protected characteristic of race and sex. If she isn’t black, she loses the protection of race but still retains the protection of sex. But take a transwoman. On this proposal they are protected by the characteristic of trans and woman, but if they are no longer “trans” then they are no longer a woman!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/04/2024 09:48

Earlier thread on this www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/5051298-proposed-scottish-misogyny-law

oldwhyno · 17/04/2024 10:05

It would appear that in terms of hate crime legislation everybody would protected from misogyny. What matters with aggravating factors like racism, homophobia is the offenders perception of the victim. If you assault somebody shouting islamophobic abuse but it turns out your victim was a Hindu, you're still guilty of islamophobia aggravated hate crime. If you beat up an camp straight man because you thought he was gay, you're still homophobic.

So it doesn't matter whether the victim is actually a woman, if the perpetrator perceived that they were. So trans identifying men could be included, even completely non-trans identifying men could be included if the offender believed they were a woman and that was an aggravating factor in their crime.

Providing the legislation is written to make it clear that misogyny is predicated on the perception by the offender that somebody is a biological woman, trans identifying people can still have just the same protection from misogyny as women. And it would be clear that in the case of a woman calling a trans identifying man a man, that could not be misogyny.

Aposterhasnoname · 17/04/2024 10:13

So trans women are subject to hate crimes because people can tell they are trans, while simultaneously being subject to misogyny because no one can tell they are trans.

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 11:01

Just came on to post about this and saw this thread.

No surprises here. My betting is that the first complaint will be from a TW against a woman.

I'll be interested to see how they intend to define a "woman" in law. This is why it was held back from the "hate crime" bill, I think - so they could really go to town on this.

Bastards!

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 11:02

CorruptedCauldron · 17/04/2024 08:26

Misogyny is the hatred or mistrust of women and girls, and/or believing that they are inferior to men. Only females can experience misogyny as it is a form of sexism. Sex, not gender.

Transwomen can experience transphobia which is already covered by the hate bill. They don’t experience misogyny because that is something that only affects the female sex class.

THIS ⬆!

In fucking spades!

A “decision Mr Yousaf said that had followed discussions with a number of women’s groups” - do you believe what he says about the discussions

I think he probably has contacted "women's groups" - the type that Ricky Gervais describes as the "new women - with cocks". If he has spoken to actual women, it doesn't mean he has taken any notice of what they had to say. This has been his agenda all along and he has stuck to it.

SidewaysOtter · 17/04/2024 11:07

CorruptedCauldron · 17/04/2024 08:26

Misogyny is the hatred or mistrust of women and girls, and/or believing that they are inferior to men. Only females can experience misogyny as it is a form of sexism. Sex, not gender.

Transwomen can experience transphobia which is already covered by the hate bill. They don’t experience misogyny because that is something that only affects the female sex class.

Nailed it.

Fukuraptor · 17/04/2024 11:16

Aposterhasnoname · 17/04/2024 10:13

So trans women are subject to hate crimes because people can tell they are trans, while simultaneously being subject to misogyny because no one can tell they are trans.

Obviously, how else could they be the most vulnerable ever?

TeaAndStrumpets · 17/04/2024 11:22

Well I hope he is the first one to be arrested if misogyny becomes a crime.

HermioneWeasley · 17/04/2024 11:26

Aposterhasnoname · 17/04/2024 10:13

So trans women are subject to hate crimes because people can tell they are trans, while simultaneously being subject to misogyny because no one can tell they are trans.

Quite. Schrödinger’s trans.

Luckydog7 · 17/04/2024 11:36

Calllalllama · 17/04/2024 08:55

So everyone is going to be covered from hate except for able bodied white men?

I would rather add women and I think it's quite funny because much more 'hate speech' is directed at women from 'transactivists' (men). The abuse sent to JK Rowling's twitter feed alone could keep the police tied up with cases for years.
I would much rather live in a free society and not criminalise speech, it is such a terrible use of resources to police it and stifles free speech.

Well yes this week is a really good point to raise. Can a woman be arrested for misogyny against a woman? If not, then according to this clarification then a transwoman can't be sexist towards a woman regardless of what horrendous threatening language they use.

Likewise if women CAN be misogynistic. Then there is nothing to stop men accusing women of mysogeny towards them. Self id means that any man at any time can be a women on their say so. How long until this happens I wonder.

Presumably there will be an example sometime soon where a transman is arrested for misogyny against a trans women.

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 11:47

Aposterhasnoname · 17/04/2024 10:13

So trans women are subject to hate crimes because people can tell they are trans, while simultaneously being subject to misogyny because no one can tell they are trans.

Poor buggers!

You really feel for them, don't you?

😢

IwantToRetire · 17/04/2024 17:44

As I said in the OP this has happened because of women's groups and self appointed spokeswomen eg Joan Smith who aren't answerable to anyone.

Sometimes those on FWR need to look outside of this forum because a lot of women, not because they are TRAs, but have really bizarre ideas about feminism.

eg the one promoted by women's groups who put themselves forward as representative of women NOT because either the UK Parliament or the Scottish Government selected them.

And this was discussed at the time how this high profile (self aggrandising) women were selling us all out.

Their arguement was that because having a Hate Crime category for sex would not help women because the law never works anyway.

As many of us said, who tried to challenge this really back to front idea, them saying that was as banana as saying we shouldn't have a category of Hate Crime covering Race because as we all know it hasn't really helped.

Can you imagine saying as nothing will change so dont lets bother including the predominant cause of hate crime because institutions wont bother with it.

Even if for nothing else, by including a category, whether Race or Sex recognises that both of these groupings are subject to discrimination and worse, eg acts of hate.

And yet a certain group of women, who think they are the experts at wheeler dealering with politicians, and presume to know better than the not so self inflated egos of feminists, have sold us all out.

Again you could say, as with women's refuges etc., those of us who say we care about the issue are as much to blame for not being there, actively participating.

Wonderful as FWR it is now, more than it ever used to be, it is now a single issue forum, rather than a well rounded feminist forum where naturally the issue of sex and gender would be discussed as being part of feminism.

So of course the patriarchy listened to those who helped them, because lets face it if sex had been included under Hate Crimes, not just in Scotland but the UK wide law, the courts would be overwhelmed. eg domestic violence, rape, pornography. And Andrew Tate would have been a criminal from the start.

Women who say they are feminist, and as on this thread, are quoted and praised on other issues, are the ones who handed governments this easy way out.

Misogyny just as a title for the bill already waters down the concept of what the bill is compared to a Hate Crime bill. Misogyny is about a "predudice", hate crimes are about actual hostility.

What is a shame that getting caught up in the headline type responses nobody bothered with the fact that the Scottish law is in line with the existing UK wide one passed earlier.

And it would have been useful to have campaigned on how women as a sex had not been offered the same protection as other protected characteristic groups (not forgetting the disabled people are also not covered) and the negative impact of that, by how that has been working.

Underlying TRA activism is the fundamental platform that under pins it, ie the societly wide culture of MRAs.

If society as a whole respected women, obviously sex would have been part of both Hate Crime laws.

Not because of trans culture, but the pre existing and totally embeded culture that women are just lesser beings, and not worthy of consideration, let alone laws that treat them equally.

If society actually respected women TRAs would never have got the foothold they have.

They would have just been dismissed as delusionists.

And of course, by excluding sex as the basis on which a hate crime might be committed, also helps the rampant MRA culture we live in obscure the reality that women as a sex class are oppressed by the sex class of men.

Unfortunately there is no mechanism for saying, please dont listen to this or that group, and as we know, if we all wrote or emailed in as individuals the process would have automatically graded contributions from individuals as not being as relevant as from a "group" that claims it is representative of women.

OP posts:
Redshoeblueshoe · 17/04/2024 17:52

He tweeted "If a man threatens to rape a woman he is unlikely to know if the victim was born a woman, or transwoman"

That's going down a storm. With currently 335 retweets 😂

Hoppinggreen · 17/04/2024 17:57

My main concern about this is that if a Woman is exposed to sex related hatred from a transwoman then it cant be misogeney can it under these laws?

thevegetablesoup · 17/04/2024 19:32

I just came on here to see if there was a threat about what he had said.

My jaw is on the floor here.

'O nation miserable, with an untitled tyrant bloody-sceptered, when shalt thou see thy wholesome days again

PTSDBarbiegirl · 17/04/2024 19:51

So males who assign themselves to be trans will be protected from misogyny laws and also Hate Crime laws. Just wondering if its just biological females that can be found guilty of Hate Crime and misogyny against these males. The most dangerous people on the planet, those females. Something isn't adding up.

PTSDBarbiegirl · 17/04/2024 19:54

Redshoeblueshoe · 17/04/2024 17:52

He tweeted "If a man threatens to rape a woman he is unlikely to know if the victim was born a woman, or transwoman"

That's going down a storm. With currently 335 retweets 😂

Beyond belief. Humza has really weedled his way into the job.