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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Proposed Scottish Misogyny Law

98 replies

RebelliousCow · 16/04/2024 12:07

Humsa Yousaf says TW will be protected by the proposed Scottish Misogyny Law:

"Humza Yousaf insisted that "anyone affected" by misogyny would be covered, whatever their biological sex"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw59e7dg2nlo

Humza Yousaf

Yousaf: Trans women will be protected under misogyny law

The first minister says anyone affected by misogyny will be covered, whatever their biological sex.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw59e7dg2nlo

OP posts:
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Skyellaskerry · 17/04/2024 07:14

GenderlessVoid · 17/04/2024 03:54

I think it will depend on how they define "misogyny" and "woman". If the law is clear that the offense is based on sex and not gender, I don't see the problem with protecting trans women who are attacked bc the attacker thinks he's a natal woman. That's what most laws dealing with discrimination or prejudice say. If someone denies me a job bc they think I'm Jewish, it's antisemitism even if I'm not. If they won't rent to me bc they think I'm disabled, it's a violation even if I don't have whatever disability they think I have.

E.g., based on Scotland's Offence of racially aggravated harassment, the statute might read:

A person commits an offence if the person—

(a)pursues a[n] racially aggravated course of conduct which amounts to harassment of another person on account of misogyny and—

(i)is intended to amount to harassment of that person, or

(ii)occurs in circumstances where it would appear to a reasonable person that it would amount to harassment of that person, or

(b) acts in a manner which is raciallyaggravated by misogyny and which causes, or is intended to cause, another person alarm or distress.

(2)A course of conduct or an action is racially aggravated by misogyny if—

(a)at the time of carrying out the course of conduct or action, or immediately before or after doing so—

(i)the offender demonstrates malice and ill-will towards the victim, and

(ii)the malice and ill-will is based on the victim's membership or presumed membership of a group defined by reference to the female sex, or

(b)the course of conduct or action is motivated (wholly or partly) by malice and ill-will towards a group of persons based on the group being defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship), or ethnic or national origins the female sex.

Misogyny should be defined as malice or ill will based on membership in the female sex class, not gender.

This would make it clear that it doesn't apply to someone calling a trans woman a man bc they clearly don't think that the transwoman is a member of the female sex class. It wouldn't apply if someone harassed a trans woman bc he was trans or not a woman (though laws that prohibit discrimination bc of trans status might).

Edited

Thanks for this @GenderlessVoid

Right now I would put money on them referring to gender, not female sex.

RebelliousCow · 17/04/2024 07:59

Skyellaskerry · 17/04/2024 07:14

Thanks for this @GenderlessVoid

Right now I would put money on them referring to gender, not female sex.

I suspect they will fudge the definition. It will most likely refer to 'women' and to anyone who "identifies as" a woman.

This, of course, implicitly suggests that everyone already knows what the definition of a woman is - but that that they don't want to spend too much, if any time at all, thinking clearly about it, or thinking through the implications of suggesting that anyone can be or identify as 'a woman'. Bad Law. Without clear, meaningful and adequate definitions it is a mess.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/04/2024 08:13

Yes I agree @RebelliousCow

Boiledbeetle · 17/04/2024 09:05

Datun · 17/04/2024 06:30

What about autogynephiles? They fetishise women's oppression.

Paris Lees says being treated like a piece of meat is hot. Or what about Andrea Long Chu "getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what female is".

These men positively court misogyny as validation. It arouses them.

And now they can get turned on and have women arrested for doing it.

A law against misogyny that actually enables it.

Edited

I can't stop thinking that the reports of alleged crimes will be taken much more seriously when it's a transwomen reporting than when it's a woman reporting.

Can women have nothing to themselves?

MarieDeGournay · 17/04/2024 11:33

ArabellaScott
Actually, sorry, I think I've got that muddled. It's the victim's perception that counts for making a report/police report.
There's a bit of unintentional irony double bluff going on here - I thought your original 'explanation' was showing how bonkers the whole thing is, and I didn't expect any mere mortal to be able to actually explain it.
I keep hearing a version of Blur - 'Girls who hate boys/Who like boys to hate girls/Who hate boys like they're girls/Who hate girls like they're boys'
'Muddle is the word, and muddle is the man'.

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 11:36

RebelliousCow · 16/04/2024 12:33

It is another friggin' big mess in the making. The SNP stumbles from one disaster to the next. You couldn't make it up....

What happens if a TW commits a misogynistic 'crime'? So far, what the Scottish government seems to do is to place them in a women's prison.

Edited

I fully expect that the majority of the people who will be prosecuted under this shambles of legislation will be women who exercise their legal right not to refer to a man as "she".

How are they legally defining a "woman"? This is sh!te!

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 11:42

ArabellaScott · 16/04/2024 20:02

Actually, sorry, I think I've got that muddled. It's the victim's perception that counts for making a report/police report.

In law, in the Act, I think it's the 'reasonable person's' perception of the perp's intent.

A "reasonable person" wouldn't have let it get anywhere near this stage t start off with, Humza.
A "reasonable person" would not even consider this stuff seriously.

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 11:46

Boiledbeetle · 17/04/2024 09:05

I can't stop thinking that the reports of alleged crimes will be taken much more seriously when it's a transwomen reporting than when it's a woman reporting.

Can women have nothing to themselves?

Edited

I can't help thinking that the reports of alleged crimes against TW will be taken more seriously than genuine crimes of rape and violence against women.

terryleather · 17/04/2024 11:51

I fully expect that the majority of the people who will be prosecuted under this shambles of legislation will be women who exercise their legal right not to refer to a man as "she"

I don't want a misogyny hate crime law (I don't want any hate crime laws but that's another story) because this is exactly what will happen and it's so obviously exactly what will happen that it could be seen from space.

Can you imagine the euphoria b*r that could be had from the validation of your special identity that this would give? Not to mention the ability to have the authorities shut down non compliant women who refuse to play along.

It's a fucking male supremacist's wet dream.

Snowypeaks · 17/04/2024 12:16

The drafting will be...interesting.

Going on the article, Helena Kennedy's brief was to look at a wider range of harms than abuse, harassment etc. HY talked about rape.

In order to include all women, woman would have to be defined as female sex. Otherwise women who claim to be men (WCM) would not be protected, or only under the general proviso that anyone who is taken for a woman would be covered. So potentially all men, not just those who claim to be women (MCW), would be protected.

If the perception of the prep is the test, adding MCW to the protected class would be redundant because they are covered anyway, like any man whom the perp thinks is a woman, eg in online interactions. MCW are also separately protected by the Hate Crime Act. So the only reason to specifically include MCW is to force team them with women. I think if enough noise is made about the unfairness and redundancy of specifically adding MCW to a measure which was supposed to address the mistreatment of women, amendments might be made. The climate has changed, even in Scotland. Labour, influenced by that change and the Westminster party, may not unquestioningly vote for it. Questions may be asked by journalists. FWS might find a way to challenge it. JKR might ride to the rescue again. (Yes, I know am reaching.)

With regard to the example HY gave - of a MCW being followed by a potential rapist down a dark alley - I just can't see it happening. I think a rapist looking for a victim would not take on a "woman" of the same sort of size and height as he is, possibly bigger, because he will want to attack a woman who is easily subdued, ie much smaller than he is. More vulnerable. He doesn't actually want a fight, even if he is confident he would win it. He wants to achieve dominance quickly. I'm guessing, anyway.

And my goodness me, if they are covered by misogyny law, MCWs will be reporting validation offences left right and centre. Will the police have time to investigate the offences against women?????

MorrisZapp · 17/04/2024 12:28

I'm so tired of living under this utter shitshow. Do they learn nothing from their own 'lived experience'? Sturgeon couldn't defend rapists in women's prisons and tried getting angry with journalists instead. Humza must know that he will actually have to explain and defend this horror of a bill when it gets to parliament, to people outside the rainbow bubble.

This makes me wonder if he's got a better job offer in the pipeline and thinks ah fuck it, let the next sucker try to defend this one. We all know this 'misogyny' law will be all about trans. He must know it too.

ArabellaScott · 17/04/2024 12:31

Helena Kennedy, of the Peter Tatchell Foundation?

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/04/2024 12:44

Just thinking aloud here …

Someone may be misogynistic because of their upbringing or social circles - similar to sectarianism - and that may come out in a variety of ways. They may be frequently dismissive of women, sarcastic about women’s achievements. They may be rude to women. They may be verbally abusive to women. They may harass women. They may be violent towards women. All of that is misogyny.

But what should be illegal? We already have laws against employment discrimination, harassment, violence. Is there really any point in extending this to rudeness, or even verbal abuse? Is there any point in extending it to sarcasm or dismissiveness? Is the law too blunt an instrument? I think it may well be. I am not convinced that a Misogyny Act, however drafted, will change people’s attitudes positively. And the same applies to all “hate crime”. The only way to reduce misogyny is to encourage respect for women.

Thinking back to a racist elderly relative of mine (long dead), her lack of respect for Asians wouldn’t have been affected one bit by legislation. It was the product of colonialism. I have no doubt that she had racist attitudes, but I doubt if they often affected anyone much in her later years. What her occasional dismissive references to “servants” as part of her childhood definitely did was to make me more aware of them, and sympathetic towards them. That’s how cultural change comes about, in my experience.

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 12:59

With regard to the example HY gave - of a MCW being followed by a potential rapist down a dark alley - I just can't see it happening. I think a rapist looking for a victim would not take on a "woman" of the same sort of size and height as he is, possibly bigger, because he will want to attack a woman who is easily subdued, ie much smaller than he is. More vulnerable. He doesn't actually want a fight, even if he is confident he would win it. He wants to achieve dominance quickly. I'm guessing, anyway.

And he wants a female.

Because let's be honest about this - even the Blair Whites of this world rarely (if ever) pass - size, physique and gait give them away.

Snowypeaks · 17/04/2024 13:07

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/04/2024 12:44

Just thinking aloud here …

Someone may be misogynistic because of their upbringing or social circles - similar to sectarianism - and that may come out in a variety of ways. They may be frequently dismissive of women, sarcastic about women’s achievements. They may be rude to women. They may be verbally abusive to women. They may harass women. They may be violent towards women. All of that is misogyny.

But what should be illegal? We already have laws against employment discrimination, harassment, violence. Is there really any point in extending this to rudeness, or even verbal abuse? Is there any point in extending it to sarcasm or dismissiveness? Is the law too blunt an instrument? I think it may well be. I am not convinced that a Misogyny Act, however drafted, will change people’s attitudes positively. And the same applies to all “hate crime”. The only way to reduce misogyny is to encourage respect for women.

Thinking back to a racist elderly relative of mine (long dead), her lack of respect for Asians wouldn’t have been affected one bit by legislation. It was the product of colonialism. I have no doubt that she had racist attitudes, but I doubt if they often affected anyone much in her later years. What her occasional dismissive references to “servants” as part of her childhood definitely did was to make me more aware of them, and sympathetic towards them. That’s how cultural change comes about, in my experience.

You don't have to convince me that hate crime laws are a bad idea. Race, misogyny, homophobia as aggravating factors for sentencing purposes, yes absolutely. But I agree with you that there is only so much the law can do.
I don't know if you've seen that graphic of the progressive hills, where positive attitudes and civil rights get to a peak and progressives keep pushing...and as they crest the hill, the attitudes become negative again. I'm probably not explaining that well, but anyway. Someone will know what I mean.

It's just that there will be a Misogyny Bill in Scotland and in the context that the SG have created, all we can do is hope that it is amended to be less mad.

Snowypeaks · 17/04/2024 13:09

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 12:59

With regard to the example HY gave - of a MCW being followed by a potential rapist down a dark alley - I just can't see it happening. I think a rapist looking for a victim would not take on a "woman" of the same sort of size and height as he is, possibly bigger, because he will want to attack a woman who is easily subdued, ie much smaller than he is. More vulnerable. He doesn't actually want a fight, even if he is confident he would win it. He wants to achieve dominance quickly. I'm guessing, anyway.

And he wants a female.

Because let's be honest about this - even the Blair Whites of this world rarely (if ever) pass - size, physique and gait give them away.

Yes - I forgot the most important bit! It would very likely never go beyond a common assault.

RebelliousCow · 17/04/2024 14:01

"It’s even worse than that. A law against misogyny is a Trojan horse, as feminists have repeatedly warned. Trans women don’t need additional protection because they’re already covered by existing legislation. Yet politicians who call for misogyny to be made a hate crime, such as the Labour MP Stella Creasy, have always insisted that it would apply to trans-identified males.
It’s a backdoor way of getting the courts to recognise “gender identity”, creating another opportunity for men to be addressed as women in the criminal justice system"

https://unherd.com/newsroom/humza-yousafs-misogyny-law-is-a-threat-to-women/

Humza Yousaf's misogyny law is a threat to women

It couldn’t be clearer, surely: misogyny is fear or hatred of women. The fact that it has been left out of legislation against hate crime, including Scotland’s new law which came into force this month, has been widely criticised. Why shouldn’t women be...

https://unherd.com/newsroom/humza-yousafs-misogyny-law-is-a-threat-to-women/

OP posts:
Snowypeaks · 17/04/2024 14:05

Yes, RebelliousCow. That's so right.

Snowypeaks · 17/04/2024 14:09

Why are these women so adamant that MCW are included in anything to do with women? It's bizarre. Do they ever talk about WCM?

MyCosyDuck · 17/04/2024 14:11

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 16/04/2024 12:45

I wasn't optimistic about this bill but they've floored me. How is this real life?? What happened to Scotland?

The SNP happened to Scotland. This is what you get when you marry up jingoism and a people who define themselves by their deep hatred of the English. Edited to make this clear: By this, I mean,too much, so much of Scotlands politics is tied up in, and defined by being "different" to England and "not England". So, this absurd legislation is happening because, seeing England go, Er, yea, so trans identifying men are men, not women, the SNP is swinging the other way, and screaming and flailing going "TRANS WOMEN ARE WOMEN AND ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS A MISOGYNIST". That's why this nonsense is happening. If the debate weren't raging in England, the SNP wouldn't give a toss.

I'm glad I got the hell out of Scotland several years back and I'm absolutely smug and feeling vindicated by the messages from friends, still there, who at the time we moved said we were being absurd, who are now contacting us telling us we were right.

Some of us saw this coming and were ripped a new one. We tried to tell you all.

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 14:17

Snowypeaks · 17/04/2024 13:07

You don't have to convince me that hate crime laws are a bad idea. Race, misogyny, homophobia as aggravating factors for sentencing purposes, yes absolutely. But I agree with you that there is only so much the law can do.
I don't know if you've seen that graphic of the progressive hills, where positive attitudes and civil rights get to a peak and progressives keep pushing...and as they crest the hill, the attitudes become negative again. I'm probably not explaining that well, but anyway. Someone will know what I mean.

It's just that there will be a Misogyny Bill in Scotland and in the context that the SG have created, all we can do is hope that it is amended to be less mad.

I agree.

When people aren't allowed to voice and discuss their opinions/ concerns etc, then they don't stop feeling them - they just sublimate them. Pressure and resentment build up, and eventually the time comes when they "explode" and cause a lot more damage than they would have done if they had been voiced initially.

Snowypeaks · 17/04/2024 14:18

Actually RebelliousCow, hasn't GI got onto statute book via the Hate Crime Act? The misogyny bill will be more about starting the process of conflation with sex.

Emotionalsupportviper · 17/04/2024 14:19

Snowypeaks · 17/04/2024 14:09

Why are these women so adamant that MCW are included in anything to do with women? It's bizarre. Do they ever talk about WCM?

Only when one of them has a baby, when apparently it "proves" that men can give birth . . .

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/04/2024 17:54

Yet politicians who call for misogyny to be made a hate crime, such as the Labour MP Stella Creasy, have always insisted that it would apply to trans-identified males.

When this was proposed for E&W, Stella gave a webinar which I think was sponsored by Stonewall, and I think some women such as Nic Williams of FPFW tried to attend and were blocked or kicked out. I imagine there is a thread about it and SC said she was going to do a mumsnet webinar but she didn't like the questions so I don't think it happened.

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