Libraries promoting body mutilation as “joy” in Norfolk

[CarobBean72]

Anyone here from Norfolk?

Norwich Millennium Library has a display of “Trans Joy”, apparently aimed at children & young people, which IMHO promotes body mutilation & self harm of women & girls & glorifies drug use. In the wake of the Cass Report it’s incredibly irresponsible.

It includes images of hypodermic needles for injecting testosterone, a packer & mastectomy scars, with the slogan “Self-made men play God right”.

Most disturbing is a small figurine of a woman’s lower half, cut off at waist & knees, bearing what appears to be a hysterectomy scar & what is either a pseudo-phallus ( an appendage made from a flap of tissue removed from the woman’s arm or thigh, rolled up and sewn to the groin to mimic a penis ) or a hypertrophied clitoris, one of the often painful effects of testosterone on the female body.

The display is accessible to children as the cabinets stand only a couple of feet high, designed for a child’s eye line and it’s placed next to the 8-14 book section. The cases are by the entrance - not noticeable when you go in but inescapable when you leave.

I can’t believe someone okayed this. If it was promoting anorexia or cutting or glorifying steroid abuse to children and teenagers, we’d all see it for what it is. Instead, it’s promoting self-mutilation under the banner of “Trans Joy”.

It’s especially irresponsible in the week the Cass Review revealed how poor the evidence base for so-called “gender affirming care” is and how little followup there has been to assess regret and de-transition rates.

Ive been trying to find a contact for the head of Norfolk Library Services - it’s a woman called Kerry Murray, who is also the Safeguarding Lead! But I can’t find any email listing for her.

Any suggestions?

Sharing images with trepidation: it’s a horror show!

Post edited by MNHQ

It appears like the entire point of that exhibition was missed here. The exhibition was not aimed at children, but at members of the general public. Transitioning is not the same as body mutilation or self harm, & there are no women or girls in the exhibits. This choice of words is blatantly transphobic as it erases the identities that the subject covered — it's pretty clear that the art pieces discussed & people behind them are not women, considering that that's the point of the display.

The "small figurine of a woman's lower half" (once again, not a woman) only doesn't have limbs etc. because it's a prototype of a vase; it feels like the wording "cut off" is used to make it sound more gruesome than it actually is, but correct me if I'm wrong & that wasn't your aim. The sculpture includes bottom growth which is one of the effects of hormone therapy, & although it can cause some physical discomfort, for most people it actually doesn't cause any pain. People who choose to go on hormone therapy are aware of all its effects & only highlighting the possible side effect of pain due to bottom growth kind of shows a lack of understanding of how life saving hormone therapy actually is.

I understand this topic may be foreign to you — at the same time reacting with such strong negative language isn't appropriate. Just because people's reality is different doesn't make it a "horror show". It's just different to you & that's okay, it is what it is.

Promoting trans joy is not the same as trying to make people transition. Cis people looking at this wouldn't feel connected to the pieces in a way that trans people would; if people felt affirmed or would relate to them in some way they'd either identify as trans or this sight would help them realise that they are. If someone feels that they are in the right body, they wouldn't decide to transition, so no, this won't convince cis young minds to just go for it.

If your child did come out as trans though, how would you navigate your love for them through all this judgement? Surely this shouldn't make you feel that they'd be less than who they were before coming out. After all people's value doesn't vary based on gender. I think we're forgetting that feminism aims for equality for all, including trans people. If you're a passionate feminist I'd suggest having a look at the intersectionality of it as it's something mainstream liberal feminists (aka white feminist movement) tend to miss out. Researching intersectional feminism would be a great way to start understanding how factors other than sex assigned at birth play a part in privilege. Personally it gave me a massive reality check on factors I don't consider purely because I'm lucky enough to not have to face them on daily basis.

It's also worth mentioning that the vast majority of people who transition do not detransition later on. There are studies that look into detransitioning, for starters the ones you can find , that not only provide stats on that, but also look into causes of detransition. The link mentions that "the most common reasons citied were pressure from a parent (36%), transitioning was too hard (33%), too much harassment or discrimination (31%), & trouble getting a job (29%)". These aren't reasons of people who feel transitioning wasn't something they wanted, but who have been kicked down by societal factors to revert to a place where they weren't happy to begin with. When it comes to people who realise they're cis after transitioning, a part of them is glad that they've transitioned regardless because it helped them get better clarity on who they are that they wouldn't have gotten otherwise, as they'd still be stuck confused on what's right for them. & then we have a small fraction of people that you mentioned, who have transitioned & upon realising it doesn't feel right for them, detransitioned & feel regret about their process. Their existence & experience is completely valid too, & I can imagine how difficult that must be. Let's just keep in mind that when it comes to medical procedures in general, there will always be a fraction of people who regret getting them done. That doesn't mean that whatever service it is, it shouldn't exist, because at the end of the day it helps masses.

Also to answer your concerns about "WTF that [QR code] was", it was a link to artists' elaborations on their pieces. I have attached a screenshot of ones for the two pieces that you've said the most about. It just so happens that they were made by my friend & I don't have any other screenshots because of that; I have only censored his name because this isn't a safe place for it to be known. You're right that you should've checked it, maybe it could've given you slightly more perspectives on the meaning behind them.

To finish this off, representation shouldn't feel like a threat. There is space for all of us in this world & just because you're used to art that's more understandable to you, doesn't mean that all other art shouldn't exist.

Oops I think the link didn't work because of the image but you can find the study I mentioned here
—

What an educational post.

Where’s that gif of a manly man has come to explain when you need it?

Well ... that's us told then

If only we understood kinder harder

It was not aimed at children but as members of the general public.

Fascinating that you imagine children are not part of the “general public”.

But it was positioned between the two exits, so that everyone leaving the library - which includes the children’s library - passed close by it. It was next to the 8-14 year olds section. The cases were at child’s eye height. If it was not aimed at them, why not put it on the third floor, where only adults go?

And finally Trans Pride Norwich said themselves it was aimed at children & at “young people”, whatever that means.

I think the rest of your comment is every bit as valid & as truthful as your second sentence, - which is not at all, so it need not bother us.

@BeHappyHedgehog

Thank you for explaining the art. And the QR codes. I am not in Norwich but I do run a gallery in the UK and from that perspective feel that the siting of this exhibit near to the children's section in the Library was curious and led to the understandable criticism here. I assume this was not discussed or agreed with your friend? If deliberately chosen it feels quite political. The QR code presumably stated that it led to an artist statement ? (QR codes should lead to anything and I hope you understand that parents of children would be concerned if codas displayed in a children's library led to anything unsuitable for under-age viewing).

Can I ask whether you are aware of any research on the time that it takes for detransition to typically occur? The article that you link to seems to have followed up for four years. There is not much research in this area - hopefully the adult clinics that refused to provide data to the Case review will help full in the blanks now that they are sharing data. Meanwhile here is a BMJ article which states what I understand to be the current best understanding of duration to detransition.

'The use of relatively short 1-2 year follow-up periods in gender care research risks missing people who detransition, which typically occurs several years after medical or surgical interventions. Studies show the interval between transitioning and detransitioning varies from months to decades,14152024 so accurate estimates of treatment discontinuation or detransition require a follow-up of at least 5-10 years after interventions. Given that many recent research studies have follow-up times of less than five years, this also disproportionately favours knowledge creation about trans people who are in the early stages of transitioning while at the same time denying detrans people important research benefits, including specific knowledge necessary to improve care services.'

https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj-2022-073584

I am not going to comment fully on your views of the readers of this post. I am sure you know that cis is not a word we use to describe ourselves. Feminist often is a word we do often use. Our understanding of this word may be very different however. it is interesting to hear more about why the exhibits look as they do.

If you have time while in Mumsnet to seek out and read the Transwidows stories, or visit their website you might appreciate that having models of such surgeries visible in a public space where children can easily see would be disturbing. It feels thoughtless. But I appreciate that the spot chosen may not have been or the artists choosing in this case.

Literally word soup.

@BeHappyHedgehog - it’s absolutely of no interest to us that your ‘friend’ created some of this nonsense. We have no issue with the creators of these rather hopeless pieces. We only care about where they are exhibited.

Thanks for coming on the feminism board and telling us to be kind and that we’re cud women and also for explaining intersectional feminism to us.

It’s just, no one has ever done that to us before. 🙄

The reason I mentioned self-harm is because the figurine appears to have representations of self-harm scars all over the thighs. It's a distinctive type of scarring. I've known several people with precisely that pattern of scars from dozens of private cutting sessions.

There's not much else to look at beyond the shape of the partial body, the genitals, and the many scars.

Self-herm is an important topic, and people with scars shouldn't feel they have to cover their skin for the rest of their lives for the sake of others' sensibilities, but artworks which draw focus to graphic representations of the result of repeated self-inflicted injury are not an anytime, anywhere, anyone kind of subject.

I am aware that children are members of the general public — I'm only highlighting that it was directed at general public & not exclusively children, so I hope that clears it up. My point still stands & disregarding my entire comment purely because you misunderstood the bit I just clarified is questionable, I mean honestly it leaves me thinking that your behaviour is quite stagnant. It's important for a person to grow & develop critical thinking through actually processing other people's ideas with a receptive mind. I mean otherwise why make a post?

Is there an exhibition space upstairs on the third floor? I thought that floor only had study spaces & only the ground floor held art exhibits. Correct me on this if I'm wrong.

I haven't seen that statement from Norwich Pride so thank you for sharing. "Young people" is usually the 16-25 range.

I think the link & screenshot are quite valid & truthful to be honest

I hope no one minds but as a manly man I just want to respond on this “creative writing” from my perspective. I have worked in Brighton for 20+ years with both the perpetrators and victims of crime.
Trying to normalise the use of “life changing “ medical pathways as a solution to a vulnerable group is abhorrent.

I also take great issue with this paragraph:
“Promoting trans joy is not the same as trying to make people transition. Cis people looking at this wouldn't feel connected to the pieces in a way that trans people would; if people felt affirmed or would relate to them in some way they'd either identify as trans or this sight would help them realise that they are.”

Having worked with MAP clients how about if I just swop out “Promoting trans joy.”

to
“Promoting MAP joy.”

Sound ok with you?

Thank you for sharing the link, it seems really interesting; I will read further through it tomorrow. I agree that there should be more studies done on the subject, & I hope that detrans will be asked about their reasons for detransioning. I'm also wondering whether the researchers' idea of detransition would include all people who stopped hormone therapy, as many trans people stop taking hormones once they achieve desired results, to have a biological child etc.

When saying cis, I wasn't referring to the members of the forum, I meant cis people in general, speaking objectively. Cis as in short for the medical term cisgender, someone who's gender identity aligns with the sex assigned to them at birth. I was using it to compare to the antonym trans.

I just checked out the Transwidows website, to my understanding it's a site of mostly women who have been widowed whose ex-partners were trans. I'm seeing a lot of language that links them being trans with their mental illnesses, I find that questionable. Does this website consider being transgender as a mental illness that leads to the deaths? Obviously I imagine living most of your life playing a role that you don't fit, hearing people's devaluing/hateful approach to the topic & then facing backlash after coming out can lead to a lot of internal difficulties, especially when coming out later in life when you already have built a family. I think anyone who struggled really hard with mental illnesses & passed due to suicide has left behind a lot of grief & some people feeling conflicted or maybe even resentful if the relationship wasn't healthy. I'm worried there might be a misconception on their transness playing a part.

It would be important information to track if a transperson stopped talking cross sex hormones whatever the reason. Any sane person would agree. Important information for anyone considering it.

There is no such 'thing' as cisgender and it isn't a medical term, it's a trans propaganda term. Most people don't have a gender identity.

I can tell you exactly how I would react if my child told me they were transgender, suddenly in adolescence. I would not affirm their identity, I would get them neutral, exploratory therapy, I would tell school that they were not to socially transition them behind our backs and make them roll back the changes they had made. And I would be doing this on the advice of mental health professionals. I know this because it's what happened. And four years on, DD is now not using male pronouns, and does not want to have surgery.

This is key, because there is not one uniform 'trans person'. There are some people who have wanted this for all their lives and I want all the best for them. The manly men who come to explain being women to us tend to transition late in life for perhaps different reasons. But teenage girls? They are fleeing from the bin fire that womanhood looks like for them, usually because of some kind of neurodiversity or trauma. Most of them don't even get into the clinical system, and that's good. Because the detransition rate in this group - ROGD if you want a name for it - is between 90 and 95% if they are left alone to just be a teenager. We don't need to affirm them, or medicalise them or encourage them to have surgery. Because these are the ones whose regrets are now all over social media are mostly girls who have transitioned in adolescence. And these are the ones who do not need 'trans joy' (aka fetishistic male sexual arousal) in their libraries.

Oh and cisgender is an offensive term which is usually not permitted on these forums. I won't report your post because otherwise this thread will not make sense but please do not use it in future. It is assigning a gender identity to an entire group who do not believe they have one. So stop.

@BeHappyHedgehog

I understand this topic may be foreign to you — at the same time reacting with such strong negative language isn't appropriate.

No, we understand your asinine beliefs all too well here on FWR, hence the outrage. The fact you can't see that such a grim spectacle doesn't belong where kids can see it says all I need to know about your personal capacity for safe decision-making.

Cis as in short for the medical term cisgender, someone who's gender identity aligns with the sex assigned to them at birth

If you believe that cis is a medical term, perhaps it is you that needs to better understand the issue.

In short, you probably think youbare special coming onto FWR to "educate" us wims, then surely we'll let you have anything you want. Your problem is that we do understand it.

It's important for a person to grow & develop critical thinking through actually processing other people's ideas with a receptive mind.

Actual lol at that bit.

My point still stands

Its hard to gauge your point, but if it is one of:

Bodily self mutilation is something to be normalised, celebrated and promoted

or

Women on Mumsnet are silly airheads who don’t understand “art”

or

Women on Mumsnet don’t love and support their children adequately

Then it never stood at all.

I understand this topic may be foreign to you
😀

This one?

'Transwidow' is a term used for a woman whose partner has decided to change gender after being married as their natal sex. This can cause extreme distress for the other partner - and yes, there may be other factors. It is usually the female partner who has child(ren) to consider who now has to decide whether they wish to remain married and in what terms. It's an extremely thorny issue, heartbreaking and not easy to decide what to do. Children in such families are often torn apart by their own difficult decisions. much worse than in a regular divorce. Understatement. To use a term that I don't usually use, this display could be 'triggering' to such families. Ditto to some transitioners or to parents of same. If cutting/self harm are part of the display this also. It does seem a VERY poor choice of siting within the library.

Reasons for detransition do need to be better understood. If someone is expecting to cease transition in order to have children later (your example) they need very very careful advice at the onset, as sterility through treatment is likely to occur. If you are not familiar with it this recent article on how puberty blockers affect sperm production and maturity and health of testes, it is very interesting (pre print so not yet peer reviewed but looks sound research) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10996503/

This is not a simple decision for trans people, their families or partners. Especially young trans people who may not achieve sexual functioning or be able to have children dependant on what they are told/understand. More good quality research and a lot of it is needed. It is not transphobic to ask whether children can consent to things they may struggle to understand. The leaked WPATH files suggest that clinicians involved in transitioning children are aware that children do not understand but went ahead anyway. The stories of detransitioners are very hard to listen to without getting very angry on their behalf and on behalf of their families.

From the sound of things I would be interested and informed by your friend's display. The displays in children's libraries that concern me most atm are those that trivialize and make childlike the issues. Colourful rainbows, flags, unicorns and happy looking transitioners showing mastectomy scars. It feels like a sinister marketing campaign.

@BeHappyHedgehog :
"I think we're forgetting that feminism aims for equality for all, including trans people."

That is not feminism. It is laudable, but it is not feminism, because feminism centres women, not "all".

I mean, using words like "nonsense" & "hopeless" paints a picture that you do directly have some sort of bashing emotions towards the art presented & not only where it was but do correct me if that wasn't your intention

“I understand this topic may be foreign to you”

Oh my. Someone didn’t do their research before blundering into FWR with their patronising bollocks to educate the (mostly) women here on trans issues, did they? And us silly women couldn’t possibly manage to understand art either, could we?

Very foolish presumptions, mate.