Scottish Hate Crime Bill: Andrew Doyle asks all the right questions of Barrister Sam Fowles

[ILikeDungs]

Scroll to 19:07. I love a bit of straightforward Andrew Doyle.

SF is accustomed to skilled oratory and a charming smile going a long way

Having seen it in others, one presumes ?

SF does a lot of decent pro bono work in planning and he's good. He didn't acquit himself well with AD, nor in this specific area, but he is passionate and knowledgeable about public planning and environmental law.

I'm guessing, but I'm assuming that SF has had quite the past as a student debater. His friend (and former client), John Nicolson, won the World Universities Debating Championships, iirc.

https://www.politics.co.uk/mp-comment/2022/06/23/book-review-overruled-john-nicolson-mp/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Nicolson

Are the MOJ figures that Andrew Doyle a sample or are they a population? That is, are those figures based on a sample(s) of prisons and prisoners, or are they a direct count of all the (self-styled) trans prisoners in UK (or do I mean English?) prisons? Because if this is a count of all of them, even if they're a small number, that doesn't make them unrepresentative. They can't "represent" anything, they're not a sample of the population of trans prisoners they are the whole population of "transwomen in prison" who need to be risk assessed. And if the proportion of self-styled transwomen in prison who are sex offenders is higher than the proportion of other prisoners or other male prisoners who are sex offenders then it's not a sampling error it's just a fact. A plain, ugly, hard to swallow fact.

As for "prisoners must be assessed individually" well they aren't now, they never have been, and they never will be. Risk assessments are based on group characteristics, like is a prisoner male or female; a known sex offender or not; violent or not; etc. This idea that prisons do some delicate identification of who poses a risk based on profound psychological insights (that prisons have and the rest of us don't) is somewhere between naive and dishonest.

It is true that the MOJ figures don't say anything about transwomen in general, outside of prison. Prisoners are not a representative sample of the population who are not in prison, trans or otherwise.

But those MOJ figures should affect a prison risk assessment. That's how risk assessment works.

My Dd says he’s being ratioed on Twitter. Hopefully he will learn from this. I expect not.

The John Nicolson who's blocked and castigated as bigots every woman who dares question the holy tenets of self-ID?

Two cheeks of the same arse, if so.

Good lord that got worse and worse as it went on! AD skewered this muppet good and proper!

He thanked AD for 'vigorously testing his points'. 🙄

Which is probably something he should have done before going on the show.

What was your friend's response to your (completely hilarious) text, @rabbitwoman - did she see the sunlight?

Yes, Sinner. He put a clip on Twitter. HE PUT A CLIP ON TWITTER. He has no idea this was a car crash of the most spectacular watching through fingers variety.

That reminded me of the Ashley MacIsaac song, "What An Idiot He Is":

He doesn't even know what an idiot he is
He says: "What's an idy idy?" Lord have pity!

He's one percent attention and ninety-nine show
He's always got an answer even if he doesn't know
Tell him what it's at, he'll tell you where to go
What an idiot he is.

Makes me feel sorry for the human race
'Cause I've got a funny feeling that he's runnin' the place
What an idiot he is.

And as others have commented, my DH said, "WTF, this is a barrister??!!" and hearing SF claim more TW are raped he said, "No. No mate."

SF also wheeled out the "most vulnerable" argument-- OMG do they have nothing? Is there really nothing? If so why can't they see that too?

Not on Twitter. Would kill for some screenshots!

My toes were curling for Sam at the end there. Do people actually pay him for legal advice?

The legal equivalent of Hilda Baker and Arthur Millard singing "Your the one that I want' (one for the teenagers there)-the only recorded instance of an appearance on top of the pops leading to a catastrophic collapse in record sales

Artur Mullard. Doh!

@AmaryllisNightAndDay those figures are a count of all trans prisoners in England and Wales and not a sample IIRC.

Here you are ILikeDungs

So SF tells us that saying "I don't believe you are the sex that you say you are" is fine. Good. Saying "I don't believe you are the sex that you say you are, therefore you should die and I'm going to get a bunch of people to do that" is a threat.

Well, no shit. It is hard to grasp that this is what the MSPs have been spending their time enacting in Scotland. Aren't death threats covered by other laws? I could be wrong, IANAB. And SF is. Barrister. Let that sink in, as IW says.

SF has been a victim of the problem Helen Joyce described when she said if you insert a lie (even a "kind" one) then everything beyond that lie falls apart. He has inserted TWAW into his belief system and so has to spout nonsense and believe women don't matter to accommodate the men with genders.

Datun commented that the ideology makes you lose your faith in all institutions and professionals, and that highlights another Helen Joyce notion: that this ideology is not fit for a sane world (I have taken liberties). In a sane world everyone would understand that a barrister would approach this issue with a sharp understanding honed by their critical thinking skills. SF lacks critical thinking skills in this area. Completely. In a sane world he would not have been writing, tweeting and being interviewed about a concept where the complexities are beyond his sexist understanding.

Thank you 334bu !!

So he said Helena Kennedy is his hero - yeah mate - we've just seen why.

Well, @Joolsin ,there followed a conversation that was hilarious to me, frequenting these pages as I do.

She was really flustered and said she could not believe a bloke was in the loos. I said how did she know it was a bloke, she said it looked like one.

How do you know it wasn't a trans woman?!

Because he didn't looook like one!!!

What does a trans woman look like?

You know, they make the effort, with the hair, the clothes!

What was this person wearing?

Jeans tee-shirt.....

What, like half the women in here!!??

But you can tell when it's a trans woman!!

How?

Etc....... And no, she did not immediately admit she was wrong, or that it would actually impact her, but she was not at all vocal about trans rights after that....

I might have remembered it wrong but I think he said more trans people are raped than ‘cis’ people. Does he mean transmen? I’d be interested where his statistics come from when he was arguing the toss about MoJ data about transwomen prisoners.

Of course Sam didn't offer a source or citation.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/statisticsonvictimsandperpetratorsofrapeintheuk

'Table 5: Percentage of adults aged 16 to 74 who were victims of sexual assault in the last year, by personal characteristics and sex, year ending March 2018 to year ending March 2020 CSEW combined - includes detailed information on rape victim characteristics including ethnicity, country of birth, marital status, employment status, occupation, highest qualification, disability, religion and sexual orientation. Although gender identity questions were added to the Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) on 1 October 2019, the sample size of those who identified as transgender was insufficient to present data on prevalence of sexual assault in Table 5.'

He said people not cis people although I guess that's what he meant.

They are the actual figures.

Although, it's my understanding, that if someone has a gender recognition certificate, they will be counted as a woman, so if anything they are on the low side.

I hate being funnelled into right wing media by this issue. My country is teetering on the brink of Facism and I'll not allow myself to get on board with their side, even if they are the only ones platforming common sense on this issue.

I'm not having a go at you OP - it's not your fault.

But these people don't give a shiny shit about women. They're just playing culture war and having fun with the outrage.

It could be this unpublished American study:

'One in two transgender individuals are sexually abused or assaulted at some point in their lives.'

https://ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

Which links to:

1 FORGE, 2005, Sexual Violence in the Transgender Community Survey, unpublished data; G. Kenagy, 2005, "The Health and Social Service Needs of Transgender People in Philadelphia," International Journal of Transgenderism 8(2/3):49–56; G. Kenagy and W. Bostwick, 2005, "Health and Social Service Needs of Transgender People in Chicago," International Journal of Transgenderism 8(2/3):57–66.

I seem to remember looking this up before and being baffled that this non-linked unpublished data survey was being used as a reliable source.