Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scotland: Jury less rape trials.

38 replies

ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 16:17

https://www.lawscot.org.uk/news-and-events/law-society-news/msp-s-report-shows-juryless-rape-trials-plan-divisive-and-flawed/

'A parliamentary report shows the Scottish Government’s plans for juryless rapes trials are divisive and flawed, according to the Law Society of Scotland.
The Scottish Parliament’s Criminal Justice Committee published its 197-page Stage 1 report on the Victims, Witnesses, and Justice Reform (Scotland) Bill on Good Friday, 29 March 2024.
Support for a pilot of juryless rape trials was equally split among committee members, with four SNP members in favour while two Conservative and two Labour members believe it should not proceed.'

MSP’s report shows juryless rape trials plan divisive and flawed | Law Society of Scotland

https://www.lawscot.org.uk/news-and-events/law-society-news/msp-s-report-shows-juryless-rape-trials-plan-divisive-and-flawed

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
OP posts:
CocoapuffPuff · 03/04/2024 16:20

Flawed, huh? In Scotland. Whodathunkit?

ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 16:22

I cannot tell you how tired I am of showboat legislation that sounds super fancypants doubleplusgood on the face of itself but turns out after a moment's examination to be botched, unnecessary, vague, weak, ill informed, poorly thought through and either unworkable or actually detrimental to life in Scotland.

OP posts:
lechiffre55 · 03/04/2024 16:35

ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 16:22

I cannot tell you how tired I am of showboat legislation that sounds super fancypants doubleplusgood on the face of itself but turns out after a moment's examination to be botched, unnecessary, vague, weak, ill informed, poorly thought through and either unworkable or actually detrimental to life in Scotland.

Agreed.
It's almost like there's a bunch of clowns running the show.
The over reaction, not thinking things through, clearly really causes problems. Cock up after cock up.

I remember how the rape trial prosecution process seesawed back and forth in the UK about a decade ago because of how badly it was handled.
Not enough rape cases were ending up in convictions. Political and press pressure ensued.
So the police decided to put their finger on the scales and withold evidence from the defense that might help the defense, in order to get their convictions up.
This is illegal, and a corruption of the justice process right to a fair trial. It worked for a little while, but then it got found out. Massive scandal.
All of the rape convictions got overturned because of the police pattern witholding evidence, even if a rape had clearly happened the unfair trial meant they had to be freed.
End result - rapists freed, conivction rate even lower than before, police fingers badly burnt so they didn't want to get involved in any more rape trials. Much worse than before the police decided to try cheating the system.

ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 16:37

The report is about 200 pp long, so it'll take a while to read.

Here's some extracts from Beira's place submission:

'Here's some quotes from the submission from Beira's Place's submission:

On 'not proven':

'At Beira's Place, we are aware of Rape Crisis Scotland’s research on the
impact of the ‘not proven’ verdict, which is used disproportionately in
rape cases (44% of the time, compared to 20% of the time for all crimes
and offences in 2019-2020). The ‘not proven’ verdict in rape cases was
deemed as having the same traumatic impact on the victim/survivor as a
‘not guilty’ verdict (Source: https://tinyurl.com/yc5wvm9e).

The ‘not proven’ verdict is unclear, there is no specific definition
for when it is to be used, (so much so that the High Court has actively
discouraged judges from expressing views or explaining the ‘not proven’
verdict to jurors (Source: https://tinyurl.com/35v4zdb4) and this is
mirrored in jurors’ beliefs around when and how the ‘not proven’ verdict
should be used. It generally appears that jurors believe that ‘not
proven’ means ‘guilty, but not beyond reasonable doubt’.

We are concerned that the existence of what are essentially two acquittal verdicts is unfair on victims of VAWG crimes; but we are equally concerned that the absence of a ‘not proven’ verdict might sway more jurors towards a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Many service providers who provide direct support to women, children and young people affected by VAWG crimes discussed the extremely traumatic impact of a ‘not proven’ verdict, equalling a ‘not guilty’ verdict – especially given the lengthy waits for a trial and the burden of proof required for a case to reach the Court.''

On juror numbers:

'Beira's Place considers the move from a 15 to a 12-member jury to be a
positive one. We expect that this will simplify the process of
recruiting and selecting jurors, in turn enabling the court process to
move more swiftly and effectively. We also believe that the number of
jurors per se is less likely to change the outcome of a trial as
indicated by research findings that ‘Jurors in the rape and assault
trials showed no significant difference in the proportion of rape trial
jurors favouring guilty or acquittal verdicts by either the number of
verdicts available or by jury size’ (Source:
https://tinyurl.com/4b5kdjbx).

On juryless rape trials:

'We are concerned that piloting judge only trials will not have any marked impact on justice for survivors of rape and other sexual offences, since the main issue appears to be that only 7% of report get to court. This option only serves to fudge the main issue that complainers do not get justice. The question is why are thousands of survivors prevented from getting their complaints taken seriously?

The argument that judge only trials for rape could improve conviction rates, is based upon the supposition that jury decisions in rape trials are impacted by rape myths. RCS paper on judge only trials states that, “Juries can be influenced by ‘rape myths. These are deeply ingrained views about what ‘real’ rape is or how a ‘real’ victim would look or behave .”

We know that rape myths are pervasive among the public. Studies have been carried out on these beliefs over a number of years with many of those myths, such as believing that victims were in some way responsible for the rape because they didn’t fight hard enough, didn’t run away, had been drinking/taking drugs, hadn’t reported the rape immediately, had a previous relationship with the perpetrator, continued to follow the perpetrator on social media, being almost impossible to shift. We also know that jurors are members of the public and will therefore carry these beliefs into the court room with them. This is not in dispute. The question is whether dispensing with juries for rape cases will improve conviction rates, given that only 7% of reported rapes ever make it to the courtroom, and thousands of victims each year do not feel that they can ever report to police.

On 31st May 2023, Lady Hale spoke to the Scottish Legal News about the proposed changes to the trial structure and highlighted her concerns about them. The article stated:

“She suggested that the issues surrounding rape and other sexual violence cases could be traced back to decisions taken much earlier. These include factors such as police actions, the quality of police investigations, and the proper maintenance of evidence.”

Any frontline worker who supports sexual violence survivors who have been through the justice process, knows that the kind of response survivors get from justice agencies is a lottery. Survivors have spoken about:

• Giving evidence to police of other witnesses who could possibly corroborate their story (for example about being too drunk to give consent) which was not followed up.
• Being questioned repeatedly while the perpetrator was not questioned, or even approached by police, even though he was known to the woman and his name and address were provided.
• Being asked “are you sure it’s just not something that got a bit out of hand?”
• Being told “you’re a big strong girl, you could have fought him off.”
• In the case of a learning-disabled child, the officer asked her parents “does her disability mean she makes up stories?”
• In court, a young woman fainted after giving evidence for several hours and when she came back into the witness box after being brought round, was asked about the course she was studying – which was drama. The implication being that she was acting.

(all of these examples come from rape crisis support or advocacy workers)

Sexual violence, and abuse are predominantly private crimes and there is extensive evidence to show that most sexual offences are committed by someone known to the victim. The need for corroboration under Scot’s Law means that the level of evidence required by COPFS to help them decide on whether a case can be taken to court, is high. Sexual violence support services know from experience that having two independent sources of evidence is usually not enough for COPFS to be satisfied that the case will be successfully prosecuted and with the perpetrators commonly using ‘consent’ as their defence, the requirement for additional, independent sources of evidence increases, which can be particularly difficult in cases of historical sexual offences.'

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 16:38

Oh. Not sure why that was hidden. It was quotes from the Criminal Justice Committee's report.

Bugger, it took a while to C&P, I hope they unhide it.

OP posts:
OP posts:
Rainbowshit · 03/04/2024 16:42

ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 16:22

I cannot tell you how tired I am of showboat legislation that sounds super fancypants doubleplusgood on the face of itself but turns out after a moment's examination to be botched, unnecessary, vague, weak, ill informed, poorly thought through and either unworkable or actually detrimental to life in Scotland.

I'm so with you on this. It's exhausting.

ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 16:43

https://www.copfs.gov.uk/about-copfs/news/statement-on-the-lord-advocate-s-reference-to-the-court-of-appeal/

'Scots Law requires two sources of reliable and credible evidence to corroborate that an offence was committed.
Prior to today’s judgment the individual elements of certain crimes were required to be corroborated. In particular, allegations of rape required there to be corroboration of penetration through at least two sources of evidence. Evidence of distress by a complainer could not provide the necessary corroboration of this act, but could only confirm a lack of consent. The Lord Advocate’s reference asked the Court to reconsider this issue.
The court’s decision today has confirmed that it is only the case against the accused that requires to be proved by corroborated evidence, and not the separate elements individually. This decision is a change to the law of corroboration for sexual offences and other offences.
It means that in cases of rape evidence of a complainer’s distress spoken to by another witness may now corroborate the allegation of rape. Further, the court also stated that if a complainer is seen in a distressed state by an independent witness and reveals to them that she was raped that statement may also provide corroboration of her account that she was raped

Statement on the Lord Advocate’s reference to the Court of Appeal | COPFS

The Lord Advocate Dorothy Bain KC has acknowledged the outcome of a reference she made to the Court of Appeal.

https://www.copfs.gov.uk/about-copfs/news/statement-on-the-lord-advocate-s-reference-to-the-court-of-appeal

OP posts:
lechiffre55 · 03/04/2024 16:44

I've read about "not proven" a few times and I still don't know what it means. Logically it can't mean not guilty or they'd say not guilty.
Same with guilty.
So is it somewhere in the middle? We'll make our minds up later?
I have no idea what it means.

ResisterRex · 03/04/2024 16:44

ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 16:22

I cannot tell you how tired I am of showboat legislation that sounds super fancypants doubleplusgood on the face of itself but turns out after a moment's examination to be botched, unnecessary, vague, weak, ill informed, poorly thought through and either unworkable or actually detrimental to life in Scotland.

Star

100%

ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 16:47

lechiffre55 · 03/04/2024 16:44

I've read about "not proven" a few times and I still don't know what it means. Logically it can't mean not guilty or they'd say not guilty.
Same with guilty.
So is it somewhere in the middle? We'll make our minds up later?
I have no idea what it means.

It means, roughly, that there is not enough evidence to prove a crime has been committed.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-65394103

Mock jury trial during research

What is Scotland's not proven verdict?

The controversial third verdict will be scrapped if proposed reforms are approved by the Scottish Parliament.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-65394103

OP posts:
OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 16:49

Oh, this might be part of the problem:

'The verdict can trace its roots back to the 17th Century, but despite being available in all criminal cases there is no definition of not proven, or the difference between it and a not guilty verdict.'

A fine tradition of fucking failing to define our laws, then.

OP posts:
Toseland · 03/04/2024 16:50

I've just realised that hearing anything to do with 'Scotland' and 'Women's rights' makes me instantly suspicious and nervously wary.

ArabellaScott · 03/04/2024 16:54

'“The Sexual Offences Review recognises the profound impact that sexual crimes has on victims and on society and the fact that, in recent years, sexual offences have become about 70% of the casework of Scotland’s High Court prosecutors and the number of cases has further increased in 2022 .”

Police Scotland’s figures from 2020/21 show that there were 2298 rapes or attempted rapes reported to them . Of these, only 7% were taken to court (152), and of those 152 that were taken to trial, only 78 resulted in a conviction. From the point of reporting a rape or attempted rape to police, the conviction rate is 3.39%. A study carried out by Rape Crisis England and Wales calculated that 1 in 30 women, or 798,000 women were raped every year, yet 5 out of 6 (83%) do not report the rape .'

(my bold). That is utterly shocking.

OP posts:
Waitwhat23 · 03/04/2024 16:55

Thank you for this thread Arabella - I've not been clear on the implications of this will be so seeing all the information collated is very helpful.

oOiluvfriendsOo · 03/04/2024 16:59

Bampots are running the country.

ResisterRex · 03/04/2024 17:01

Will this also be a Trojan Horse through which to sneak a "more inclusive definition" of rape, I wonder? I'd be on the lookout for that as well.

lechiffre55 · 03/04/2024 17:15

Not proven always sounded to me like "we know the bugger's guilty, we just can't prove it."
It sort of implies that the presumption of innocence doesn't apply in Scotland. Most legal systems in the western world are based around this presumption of innocence. Until guilt is proven you are innocent.
A wishy washy middle of the road no one's sure what it means "not proven" seems to undermine this presumption of innocence.

Here's a historical reference to the prinicpal of presumed innocence -
The American system, grounded in the British Common Law, has long erred on the side of protecting innocence. Thus we presume an accused person's innocence until they are proven guilty. As the preeminent English jurist William Blackstone wrote," Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer." This principle can also be found in religious texts and in the writings of the American Founders. Benjamin Franklin went further arguing "it is better a hundred guilty persons should escape than one innocent person should suffer."

IwantToRetire · 03/04/2024 17:34

As said on the earlier threads about this, the arguement for juryless trials for rape came from women support service for women who had been raped.

It was / is hard enough to get rape cases to court, but all too often tactics such as smearing the woman concerned as being sexually premissive, using information taken from her phone, but worse still the juries - ie ordinary members of the public including women, tend not to believe women. Or as research has shown even when the jury thinks it was rape they do not think a man should have his life and career ruined as being a convicted rapist. (Not forgetting that Scotland thinks men up to 25 cant comprehend that it is wrong!)

So I have no idea how well or how bad Scotland is implementing it, but its purpose was to try and increase convictions for rape by cutting out the whole courtroom saga of dragging the victims name through the mud, while implying some poor man just misread the signals.

Supposedly a Judge would just deal with "facts" and not use their sexist attitudes towards women as a way of deciding whether rape did happen.

IwantToRetire · 03/04/2024 17:39

This is the paper the decision was based on https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/Media_704445_smxx.pdf

I think it is Holland where this already happens and France was / is intending to do the same.

OrangeCrusher · 03/04/2024 17:45

I live in Scotland and sat on the jury of a man accused of multiple rapes, sexual assaults and other charges such as voyeurism of three women he had been in relationships with. He was found guilty of the minor charges only because there was photographic evidence (although, several men in the jury tried to explain this away). I found it quite a traumatic experience, not because I had to listen to three women describe what had happened to them and discuss photos of themselves unconscious and naked but, because of the eight men on that jury. After the trial I came to 3 conclusions -

  1. men should not sit on rape trials. I can’t repeat what was said but there were at least three men who were seriously worrying and the other men followed the lead of these guys like sheep.
  2. Jury trials are not appropriate for rape trials because you can’t exclude men.
  3. that jury’s need intensive training on rape myths and what consent actually means. Some of the things I heard other male members of that jury say were outrageous.
I didn’t honestly think the pilot of rape trials without a jury would work, but god knows something has to be done. The current system does not work. If that means multiple pilots of different ideas to we find something I’m all for it.
OrangeCrusher · 03/04/2024 17:54

lechiffre55 · 03/04/2024 17:15

Not proven always sounded to me like "we know the bugger's guilty, we just can't prove it."
It sort of implies that the presumption of innocence doesn't apply in Scotland. Most legal systems in the western world are based around this presumption of innocence. Until guilt is proven you are innocent.
A wishy washy middle of the road no one's sure what it means "not proven" seems to undermine this presumption of innocence.

Here's a historical reference to the prinicpal of presumed innocence -
The American system, grounded in the British Common Law, has long erred on the side of protecting innocence. Thus we presume an accused person's innocence until they are proven guilty. As the preeminent English jurist William Blackstone wrote," Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer." This principle can also be found in religious texts and in the writings of the American Founders. Benjamin Franklin went further arguing "it is better a hundred guilty persons should escape than one innocent person should suffer."

Actually, presumed innocence doesn’t 100% mean you are innocent. It means we think you’re possibly guilty and have evidence to prove it and we’re going to try and use that evidence to convict you. Surely that’s the threshold the crown prosecution and Procurator Fiscal have to meet otherwise you can’t face trial.

IwantToRetire · 03/04/2024 17:57

So sorry OrangeCrusher - I have heard other women talk about the trauma of being on the jury of a rape trial.

that jury’s need intensive training on rape myths and what consent actually means

I think this was also proposed by some women's groups and in fact have found 2 petitions about this, one dating as far back as 2018.

https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/209573

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/641404

(Honestly all this work, and side stepping, and pretending not to mind, because men just wont change. Angry)

Archived Petition: All jurors in rape trials to complete compulsory training about rape myths

Research shows that jurors accept commonly held rape myths resulting in many incorrect not guilty verdicts. Rapists are walking free from court, although evidence is robust. This ruins lives. Rape conviction in the UK is very low. Compared to other cri...

https://petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/209573