Conversations about JK Rowling

[MissScarletInTheBallroom]

I'm friends with a group of women who are mainly based in the US and Canada, and all politically left leaning. I deliberately do not mention anything to do with gender because I know that they are all very TWAW and would be horrified to learn that I am not. A particular subset of this group are big fans of Harry Potter but by common consensus do not talk about JK Rowling because they're all so disappointed about her stance on this issue.

Recently, however, one of them started a private conversation with me about JK Rowling. We had previously talked about the Cormoran Strike series and in particular about how Troubled Blood is not a transphobic book and the people claiming it is have clearly not read it. Then recently I sent her a message saying that the title of the next book has just been announced.

Out of nowhere, she said she wished JK Rowling would stop being transphobic so everyone could just go back to being a fan. I'm fairly sure that my friend had sensed that my views aren't aligned with those of the rest of the group and was testing me.

I didn't want to lie to my friend, and more importantly I didn't want to take the coward's way out and pretend that I also think JK Rowling is a hateful bigot when she has been so brave in sticking her head above the parapet in front of the entire world on this issue.

So I started by asking my friend whether she had actually read JK Rowling's essay. She replied that she had skim read it, but really, she was just appalled by the whole thing. I said I had read the whole thing because when people started accusing her of transphobia I wanted to find out what she had actually said, and judge for myself. I said I didn't agree that she was transphobic, but that she has serious concerns about women's rights and child safeguarding. I also said that in the UK, the idea that women should have some single sex spaces and sports is one that most people support. My friend said she actually agreed with that.

My friend then said that whilst there might be valid arguments to be made around single sex spaces, the way JK Rowling has expressed her views has been really harmful, especially given the context of the way LGBTQ people are being treated in many parts of America.

I responded by saying that context is important. JK Rowling doesn't live in America, she lives in the UK. In the UK we have no political equivalent of the American right wing, because even our Conservatives are more akin to the US Democrats on both economic and social issues. JK Rowling does not live in America, she doesn't vote in their elections and she's not responsible for who the American people elect to represent them or what they do. She is, however, entitled to have an opinion and to speak about what is happening in her own country, i.e. the UK and more specifically, Scotland.

I then went on to list some of the most concerning things that have happened in the UK and particularly in Scotland over the last few years, with a particular focus on prisons, rape crisis services and Maya Forstater. I told her about what had led to JK Rowling deciding to set up and solely fund Beira's place, and that trans activists had been trying to have it forced to accept male survivors or shut down. I told her all about Mridul Wadhwa, quoting extensively from the horse's mouth.

I also said that JK Rowling is far from the only person to be concerned about irreversible medical interventions being performed on trans identifying children, and expressed my private belief that puberty blockers are likely to be banned across Europe within a few years, given that the UK and France are now following the lead of the Scandinavian countries in putting the brakes on some of these practices, because the long term evidence in favour of them is really not good.

She said she understood all of that but wished that JK Rowling had not chosen this hill to die on, and that even though these issues are important, she feels that the harm caused to the LGBTQ community has been greater than the small benefit to other groups from speaking out. I said I disagreed, and that for female prisoners and rape survivors, as well as children who will now hopefully get more ethically responsible healthcare, these are not small matters.

I finished by picking up on a particular point she had made about JK Rowling suggesting she "doesn't believe trans women are women" and I said that I think the "trans women are women" mantra is actually really harmful to women because we all have our arms twisted to say it, and then the fact that we have said it is used as a justification for taking away our single sex rape crisis support or letting male athletes compete in our sports. I said that a few years ago I would have said that trans women are women but now I think it's a lot more complicated than that and if she's being honest with herself, so does she.

She never replied to that last message but she is continuing to engage with me in the group chat. I am not planning to talk to her about this issue again unless she specifically brings it up. But I privately believe that the message hit home and now she doesn't know what to do with it.

Update: I just outed myself as a JKR loyalist in the group chat and think I may have to leave the group now.

😬

Sorry I don't think these women are intelligent nor do they care about women's rights if they believe TWAW. Women like that - virtue signalling misogynists - infuriate me.

Same

Really interesting thread. I also have UK friends who think JKR is transphobic but are otherwise lovely intelligent people. The split must be amplified so much more in the US.

I hope you don't have to leave your group OP!

"My friend then said that whilst there might be valid arguments to be made around single sex spaces, the way JK Rowling has expressed her views has been really harmful, especially given the context of the way LGBTQ people are being treated in many parts of America".

This part is so asinine. Not only is it victimisation and shutting down debate ("yes, yes, there is a point but...") but it also fuels the entire mentality that anything that doesn't align with the dogma, is harmful and therefore even if "valid" as it was described in this instance, cannot be said. It perpetuates the complete echo chamber these people live in. Because they can't even think objectively about the issue.

Well done. If only I had your patience and clarity of thought.

So someone started a conversation in the WhatsApp group about JKR and they were all just talking about how awful she is and particularly her tweets over the last few days. They were all of the opinion that she has cranked up her bigotry to new levels this week. As the conversation continued I just felt more and more uncomfortable staying silent when she has been so brave and put her neck on the line over this issue. I thought that if she could do that for all women, the least I could do was risk incurring the wrath of one WhatsApp group.

So I explained the context of her series of tweets this week, i.e the Scottish legislation and what it was aiming to do, and why it matters that she essentially broke the law so publicly and forced the Police and Scottish Government to pretend the legislation doesn't mean what it actually means.

The conversation didn't go well. There were a lot of replies along the lines of "the only context I need is that she is a bigot". One person brought up her trans sister. Another said that she is a rape survivor who would be perfectly happy to share spaces with trans women.

Basically none of them attempted to engage with any of the points I made at all, or give even the slightest consideration to the opposing perspective.

After a while I said I was muting the group for a while but I continued to read what they were saying. It's just an echo chamber.

None of them said anything directly nasty to or about me, or directly called me a TERF or anything like that, but the atmosphere was definitely hostile. I feel that I was pretty respectful towards them but they didn't show me the same respect in return.

I haven't left the group, just archived it. But right now I don't feel very much like talking to them.

The person I originally had a private discussion with was not part of the conversation. I just checked the last message I sent to the group and she hasn't read it yet. I wonder what she will think when she catches up on her messages.

But you know what, there are over 50 people in that group. Maybe 10-15 were openly discussing it, a few more people just reacting with emojis, and a couple more who caught up after I had left and, you know, said all the "right" things. By my count that leaves about half the group who either haven't read that part of the conversation or have chosen not to get involved. I do not believe for even one minute that anyone will publicly agree with anything I said. But who knows. Maybe some of them will start thinking some inconvenient thoughts as a result.

I feel a bit sad about it because it's been nice to have this connection with these women whose children were all born at the same time as mine, but I think maybe my time in the group has come to its natural end. I don't want to pretend to believe things I don't believe. If they can't handle someone having an opposing point of view, that's on them. I don't mind the fact that they believe something different. But I don't like the Mean Girls vibe I experienced when I expressed my legitimate opinion.

It was quite scary putting myself out there like that, and the result was not exactly unexpected. But I feel that my integrity remains intact. And, reassuringly, I didn't find their veiled accusations of bigotry hurtful, because I know it's not true. I was just disappointed that they couldn't think of anything more intelligent to say.

OP, this has been a really interesting thread. My friends are also leftish (as I am) and it is hard putting the GC side, although I have started gently trying to do this. I think they are a bit startled tBH, but IMO low key and low drama discussions to raise alternative viewpoints are good.

@MissScarletInTheBallroom let's hope that your courage in standing up for your beliefs gets some other women thinking.

I've been reading a book on personality types and it seems that a lot of people just hate rocking the boat, and also are not particularly analytical. So they keep quiet either because they hate to disagree and cause a row, or because they just haven't thought about it.

You’ve done great op, also really good point about context with UK vs US. I would have been more direct with them about being idiots.

Even if someone does have genuine gender dysphoria, these friends don’t seem to be getting that JKR is fighting for women’s safety, because actually, some men posing as TW have alterior motives, such as fetishes.

In regards to your friend who mentioned their trans sister, my personal experience is that it’s different when you know the person well and know you can trust them, than being asked to share spaces with a complete stranger where the only thing you know about them is that they are a man dressed like a woman.

Homestly I think you should also just leave group! Also a group with 50 people in it sounds exhausting to me!

#Metoo. Strong minded and kind women can believe in the most misogynistic shite to try to keep up with socially acceptable norms, desperately hoping to avoid falling foul of 'polite society'. Stateside politics is so tribal that if one falls out with the preferred group, it is social death. Ironically I find western women, especially the liberal ones much more caught up in this trap of acceptability than my social circle out here in the far east.

Respect to OP for sticking to her integrity.

Morning all. So I was just cleaning my teeth and reading your replies, and was going to reply to @MariaVT65 to say that yes, in some ways it is quite exhausting being in a group that big, especially with the rest of them being in such a different time zone. It's not unusual to wake up and find hundreds of new messages which I can't be bothered to read. And there are other ways in which I am on the periphery, for example when they organise Secret Santa for each other's kids or a gift for someone who has suffered a loss and I don't participate because the geography makes it impractical. And yes, the general feeling of being in an echo chamber a lot of the time. There have been times when I have thought about leaving the group, not because of anything they had said or done but just because I wasn't really feeling it, and I wasn't sure how to do that without causing offence.

Anyway, I looked in my archived groups folder and found that I had been removed from the group overnight. So that's that, I guess.

I stand by what I said originally, in that these aren't stupid people. They're all bright, well educated women, doing all kinds of great things with their lives, from being SAHMs to some seriously big and impressive careers. But there's no critical thinking happening here. And whilst I do genuinely believe they think they are being kind, it's clearly performative kindness, and kindness which is conditional on the other person having all the same views they do. I've always been impressed by the fact that a group with so many women in it has remained a friendly space and never descends into in-fighting or drama. But on reflection, that's because they don't accept anyone who is different in the first place. If you don't toe the party line, they reveal themselves to be extremely intolerant. I didn't say anything unkind about trans people, I just tried to explain a little bit about why JK Rowling has the views that she has, which was enough to get me excommunicated. I've no idea what was said in the run up to the decision to kick me out, no idea whether they took a vote or what, I didn't read it. But statistically, out of 50 women, I bet there is at least one woman in there who privately thinks that "TERFs" have got a point about some of this stuff, and has now seen what happens to someone who dares to express an alternative point of view. I've been made an example of.

The whole thing is just so fundamentally intolerant and illiberal, which (ironically) is probably what they have been saying about me behind my back.

So that's that, I guess. Whilst I would prefer not to have been so unceremoniously dumped by women I've been chatting to since we were all expecting our little ones, I think that even if I hadn't spoken out these women would have felt increasingly alien to me anyway. I am happy to be friendly with people whose views I disagree with and respect their differing opinions, but the respect has to go both ways. And I would have lost respect for myself if I had let myself be a passing bystander and not said anything while that conversation was going on, which is far more important. I care what I think of myself far more than I care what they think of me.

I am impressed with everything you have said and written. You are an amazing writer by the way. You are also an inspiration.

It's horrible to be ostracised and shut out for your correct and sensible views. If I was there I would be treating you to lunch and giving you chocolate or something to cheer you up.

Sending un-Mumsnetty hugs and thanks. Things are changing and they will maybe eventually realise it. Hopefully some of them already do and are feeling ashamed.

I care what I think of myself far more than I care what they think of me.
Which is why you've had the guts to see this one through. Hopefully you have planted some seeds in a few minds.

“But statistically, out of 50 women, I bet there is at least one woman in there who privately thinks that "TERFs" have got a point about some of this stuff, and has now seen what happens to someone who dares to express an alternative point of view. I've been made an example of.”

I bet you’re right with what you wrote above. My own curiosity was prodded when there was the original furore about the JKR tweets, and I looked and decided for myself. I am sure there are others like me, and I definitely think that in a group of 50 they at least some would go and read up a bit. And form their views on that.

And full respect to you. As @Calyx72 says I too think you write so well and through your writing I can imagine the way you would have communicated with the group, with integrity and calmly.

Not nice you were dumped but as you say, says more about them, and it sounds like it had probably run its course for you.

They had to do something dramatic like that to justify their own cognitive dissonance. What a disappointment. Can’t you create a new group, add them all back in and do your own JKR and tell them all what you think of their misguided misogyny? Then leave on your own terms.

Oh goodness I can't believe you have been removed from the group! I know this happens on bigger Facebook groups etc but this was a smaller friend group.

I was going to agree with what you said about the quiet majority who don't reply. I have noticed on my Facebook that if someone posts something along the lines of TWAW, no-one disagrees, BUT the number agreeing or liking has got smaller and smaller - most people just stay silent on it.

I bet you have got a few people thinking OP. Also I wonder if your removal from the group will have got a few people thinking as well.

I still don't entirely blame my TWAW friends. I think that could have been me if I hadn't ended up reading too much MN!!

Aha, no thanks! Having that conversation once was quite enough for me. And I don't have many of their phone numbers saved anyway.

I wasn't really hoping to convince anyone and I was 99% sure that this would be the outcome of me speaking up, but I just didn't feel able to remain silent. If you stand by and watch as people rip into someone you respect and admire - even if they are not present to witness it - you are a coward.

As the great JK herself once said, it takes a great deal of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends. Not that they were ever really real friends in the first place. If they were, they wouldn't have done this.

I think you're right about people in the UK, but not sure about America. It's a whole extra level of crazy over there, and I think a lot of them will never examine their own beliefs because tribalism is normal to them and critical thinking and independent thought seem to be actively discouraged.

Before I was booted out of the group I did see that the person I had my original, much more balanced, conversation with posted to say that she had just caught up on all the messages and wanted to add just how appalling she thinks JK Rowling is. She also removed me from a separate, smaller group chat, of which she was the admin.

I still think she knows. I still think she understands full well that it is a lot more complicated than she and her friends like to pretend. But I also think she knows that if she ever said so out loud, she would get the same treatment I just did. And she has a lot more to lose than I do. Because I live in an environment where, as tricky as this subject is, respectful debate is permitted, and most people manage to maintain friendships with people they disagree with about certain things, whereas she does not. The consequences of not repeating the mantras and obeying the whip would be much greater for her than they have been for me.

Well done on all you have said in that group - like a wildfire - it simply needs lots of small conversations each making a few people re-think... to change society...

the two main flaws in their argument are:

• JKR is transphobic - as above - there is a $1m prize to show any quote by JKR that shows her to be transphobic - if people are so sure - claim the prize money! (https://www.thedistancemag.com/p/we-will-award-steve-wardlaw-1-million)
• trans people are harmed by stating that a man is a man / not a woman - challenge for the evidence - if it is that their mental health is weak and they can't cope with that statement, then it is their mental health which causes the damage and which needs help - there is no evidence anywhere that stating biological truths has harmed a single person.

no-one yet has managed a convincing argument on those two flawed statements - and yet without doing so they have no argument...

Apart from anything else, even if it were true that trans people are harmed by stating that a male person is not a woman, it would also still be true that many women have been harmed by stating that a male person can be a woman.

Every woman who has been incarcerated with a male prisoner, or lost out on a sporting opportunity or victory, or been denied access to single sex rape crisis support, or self-excluded from women only spaces because they are no longer single sex, has been harmed by the falsehood that a male person can be a woman.

Why does it matter so very greatly if trans people are harmed by the truth, to the point where we should not speak the truth, but it apparently it doesn't matter at all if women or other groups are harmed by the lie?

Where is the logic here?

If one group is harmed by the truth and another group is harmed by the lie, we need to find a way of reducing or eliminating the harm to one group, but if you have to pick one, surely the truth should prevail over the lie. Particularly given that the number of people in the group harmed by the lie is far greater than the number of people in the group harmed by the truth.

Before I was booted out of the group I did see that the person I had my original, much more balanced, conversation with posted to say that she had just caught up on all the messages and wanted to add just how appalling she thinks JK Rowling is. She also removed me from a separate, smaller group chat, of which she was the admin

What a shame. Very interesting to hear how polarised the US is, and I agree with you - though I think the left/right polarisation has increased across all countries in recent years.

I think we also underestimate as a species just how powerful social norms are. That they can influence so greatly, not only what we allow ourselves to say, but also what we allow ourselves to think. I think of myself as a very kind and open minded person. Until the gender issue, I'd never pictured that I could be so out of alignment with my left wing friends and colleagues. It has given me greater sympathy for those who e.g. vote differently to me, and a greater appreciation for the importance of free speech. It might sound over dramatic but I can even begin to see how ordinary nice people allowed the holocaust to happen.

Effectively they are doing exactly what Humza's bill was intended to do - Shutting down free speech.

Sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "Lalalalala I can't hear you" benefits no-one, not even the transpeople they claim to be supporting. It's sad that they can't see that and at least be open to other opinions being voiced even if they don't agree or engage with them.

They are wilfully blinding themselves to new developments and information - for instance, the increasing number of detransistioners who are starting to speak out, the medical information becoming available , the hurried backtracking by organisations such as Stonewall ("We NEVER said that!") when there is plenty of documentation that they said exactly that and have now been caught on the back foot as their lies are bin exposed.

If people would even be prepared to listen, what a difference that would make.

I think GC leaning people do listen and read stuff from both sides - we have to because we need to know TRA arguments and actions - and this means that we can see where genuinely dysphoric people have genuine needs and where TRAs are just pushing an agenda which is dangerous to women and girls.

This means that we aren't unsympathetic to people who are suffering because of their own reaction to their sexed bodies, but at the same time we see the need to balance this with the safety and dignity and rights of women and girls.

I worked in a hospital department with many transgender individuals (all M to F), and every single one of them was very aware that they were men, and always would be men no matter how much they had in the way of hormones and surgery. They were just desperate to be as comfortable with themselves as possible, and get on with their lives.

Some of them were beautiful; most of them looked like blokes in a frock. That didn't matter. They treated women respectfully; women treated them respectfully. They never had a problem using the gents' facilities, and nor, from what they said, did the other men in there object. Most, though, preferred to use disabled loos when they were available because they felt self-conscious (not because they felt threatened). They were very unlike the aggressive, demanding TRAs we see front and centre now. They just wanted to live and let live, as almost all of us do.

Agreed - but when you factor in that there is no evidence that anyone trans has been harmed by someone stating biological reality and then insisting on women only spaces (i.e. for biological women)...

and you factor in that it can harm trans people to operate as though they are their non-biological sex:

• medical situations where it is important to know whether someone is biologically male / female
• all the children being permanently abused and damaged by hormone and surgical treatment
• etc.

all of that simply adds strength to the argument....
it removes that element of the discussion from being a counter to the 'women need their own space' argument and they become supporting arguments to being truthful / factual / etc.

so - totally get that the priority is that women need their own space regardless - but the point I am making is that their argument rather than contradicting it - is flawed and when looked at accurately supports / adds to your argument