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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC Hardtalk discusses UK feminism and sex differences with Judith Butler

32 replies

GreenUp · 29/03/2024 20:07

Has anyone else listened to this interview? It came out a few days ago and I haven't seen a thread yet. It's only 23 minutes long.

I thought it started a bit slow but toward the end the interviewer Stephen Sackur challenged Butler more about her attitude toward UK feminists and pointed out the fact that women may have issues with people with penises in women's spaces.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct4p4g
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/hardtalk/id494517111
https://open.spotify.com/show/3OLU3WKNozcvpcmgO7PEax

Butler has been doing lots of interviews to promote her new book Gender Trouble. Most journalists who interview her are very sycophantic so I thought it was good Stephen Sackur wasn't bowing and scraping. She seemed quite annoyed by the end of it.

BBC World Service - HARDtalk, Judith Butler: Gender and identity

Stephen Sackur speaks to the philosopher and author

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct4p4g

OP posts:
DameMaud · 29/03/2024 20:56

Thank you for this.

Yes. He did a pretty good job of challenging Butler in the key areas I think; prisons, the dismissal of left wing feminists, and Butler's contribution to the polarisation/gender critical-as-extreme right wing narrative- despite Butler's bizarrely ostensible aim to foster calm discussion and cohesion.

Butler's blindspots were glaring!

Fascinatingly weird. Very appreciative of the interviewer's informed pushback.

rhywlodes · 29/03/2024 22:02

What a lot of hot air!

I can't work out whether the sunlight is a good thing, or whether having this kind of nonsense on the radio, with a interviewer who has to be careful to be impartial, just normalises it...

I do think he did a good job, but don't understand why he used the term 'assigned at birth'. And he was obviously prepared, with a quote from Sarah Ditum to back up his question, for example, but it woud have been great if he'd been able to push back factually on all the other stuff she gets wrong - like implying that chromosomal abnorbalities are so common that we need to take that into account for everyone, therefore sex is not binary... or implying that most scientists/feminists agree with her... there were others.

They both sounded impatient by the end!

DameMaud · 29/03/2024 22:08

Ah! Now you're making me think I was so grateful for some rare crumbs of pushback, that I missed all these other points!

lonelywater · 29/03/2024 22:11

Some times wonder if Butler is, in fact, a deep cover terf. Everything she says (if you can be bothered to de-encrpyt it) is such total dogshit she must be working for the GC side.

DameMaud · 29/03/2024 22:12

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2024.03.29-204500/unherd.com/newsroom/judith-butler-faces-difficult-questions-on-book-tour" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.ph/2024.03.29-204500/unherd.com/newsroom/judith-butler-faces-difficult-questions-on-book-tour/

Found an archive link of unherd article above as can't access. In case anyone else has the same issue.
Eliza is always good on this stuff.
Thanks to Cake for original link

DameMaud · 29/03/2024 22:21

Just read it. Succinct and good.
I think the sunlight is good Rhywlodes!

Just highlights why 'no debate' was so strongly advocated for. The realm of intellectual theory is a house of cards when it meets it the real world. Butler is outside of Butler's comfort zone I think.

Astariel · 30/03/2024 12:11

Butler, I think, is really accustomed to being surrounded by sycophants who don’t challenge the quality of her argument.

I saw her speak at a conference and I was pretty horrified at how the academics around me approached the whole thing. It was more like fans at a Taylor swift concert than an academic conference. All these people who are usually total arseholes about other academics’ talks (nitpicking, weird power plays, all the standard academic egotism) gasping about how wonderful she was.

She was NOT. She gave half a talk that was lots of hot air and little substance. Just got to the end of her a lot and said ‘I’ll stop there’ without reaching any conclusion. If any normal academic had done that, they’d have been ripped to shreds - and bitched about (because academics really aren’t nice to people not in their clique). But people were just starstruck and decided to abandon any critical engagement whatsoever.

It’s not just Judith butler this applies to. There are a number of ‘big name’ American academics who swan through life being pandered to by adoring fans.

This particular conference experience was a key turning point in my deciding that academia was not for me. I just looked at my peers and thought: I have lost all respect for you. You treat PhD students and junior academics like shit by asking sneery questions and posturing but along comes a ‘star’ and you turn into a much of sycophants.

The public displays of sycophancy on twitter that went along with this were just nauseating.

flyingbuttress43 · 30/03/2024 13:34

Judith Butler just doesn't get it does she? The more I hear from her the more I think she is either simply a left wing extremist, pushing her agenda or an occupier of a fantasy world where reality is not allowed to intrude.

UtopiaPlanitia · 30/03/2024 13:54

Quite surprised that The Atlantic has a good critique of Butler and her new book:

https://www.theatlantic.com/books/archive/2024/03/judith-butler-whos-afraid-of-gender/677874/

https://archive.is/asKIh

Reading the article gets a wee bit confusing in some places owing to Butler’s wish to be described with a gender neutral pronoun but otherwise I think it’s an interesting piece and I’m glad to see it published in a mainstream American magazine.

Not Everything Is About Gender

In a new book, Judith Butler tries to indict gender-critical feminists.

https://www.theatlantic.com/books/archive/2024/03/judith-butler-whos-afraid-of-gender/677874/

Astariel · 30/03/2024 14:15

@UtopiaPlanitia you’re right that the stupid third person pronouns Butler insists must be used to refer to Butler makes the article unnecessarily hard to follow in parts.

I suspect Butler enjoys that choosing such pronouns makes it harder for people to criticise Butler.

There are some good points in the article nonetheless - why is it that everything is contingent and socially constructed except trans identity which is an essential truth of the self? Why does Butler find it hard to construct a whole argument and, instead, reaches for accusations of fascism to demonise people Butler wants to discredit?

UtopiaPlanitia · 30/03/2024 14:30

Astariel · 30/03/2024 14:15

@UtopiaPlanitia you’re right that the stupid third person pronouns Butler insists must be used to refer to Butler makes the article unnecessarily hard to follow in parts.

I suspect Butler enjoys that choosing such pronouns makes it harder for people to criticise Butler.

There are some good points in the article nonetheless - why is it that everything is contingent and socially constructed except trans identity which is an essential truth of the self? Why does Butler find it hard to construct a whole argument and, instead, reaches for accusations of fascism to demonise people Butler wants to discredit?

Edited

Over the years, I’ve always felt that Butler doesn’t enjoy the academic process of analysis and critique involved in peer review. Butler seems to take all criticism as evidence of bad faith argument and thus Butler progressing to lumping all criticism together as 'fascism' is a handy, socially acceptable (within Butler’s circle) way of rejecting the criticism without having to properly engage and provide evidence.

Signalbox · 30/03/2024 14:47

When he asked JB about “performance” JB completely swerved answering the question. My understanding is that JB moved away from saying that gender is a performance because trans ideology moved on and it rather makes it sound like the whole thing is an act. I wish he’d picked up on the fact that JB didn’t answer his question though.

AnnaMagnani · 30/03/2024 14:49

@Astariel DH has had a similar experience. He takes part in a regular discussion group which is open but usually just attracts the same core members.

The week they did Judith Butler it was packed with people they never saw before or since (lots from the education department) and all of them were basically fawning. None of them had or wanted to have the background knowledge the group had been grafting at for the rest of the term either.

AnnaMagnani · 30/03/2024 16:35

Got to 4.28 and had to give up as Judith was already making me cross.

Am trying again but they are still getting on my nerves.

Imnobody4 · 30/03/2024 17:30

She really is incapable of any deep analysis. That was excruciating
I did perk up when she mentioned International anti gender movements and looked it up. Thanks for the heads up.

https://www.lse.ac.uk/gender/news/2022/AHRC-launch

Funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council (AHRC) network grant and LSE Knowledge Exchange and Impact, this is a critically important global research network of scholars, policy makers and activists. The research project and network is led by Clare Hemmings, Professor of Feminist Theory and Sumi Madhok, Professor of Political Theory and Gender Studies of the Department of Gender Studies, London School of Economics and Political Science, UK.

From September 2022 - January 2024, the network will invite theorists, activists, and policymakers already working on 'gender ideology' to explore intellectual resources for new frameworks for politics and theory and also participate in four transnational workshops around themes of: politics; geographies; temporalities; and transnational imaginaries. Crucially, these four research workshops will facilitate the exchange of ideas for a critical praxis across disciplinary and activist sites for countering 'anti-gender' politics in different parts of the globe

Transnational 'Anti-Gender' Movements and Resistance: Narratives and Interventions

AHRC funding to Department of Gender Studies

https://www.lse.ac.uk/gender/news/2022/AHRC-launch

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/03/2024 18:25

Just listened. It was by turns too exasperating for words and highly satisfying when he landed a point. I bet he gets some "impartiality" complaints, like Justin Webb.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 30/03/2024 18:27

Butler has been doing lots of interviews to promote her new book Gender Trouble.

Just to note, I think that's her much older book. This new one is called "Who's Afraid of Gender" or something.

AlisonDonut · 30/03/2024 18:34

I actually had a dream / nightmare about going to a Judith Butler event last night.

Someone asked her which of her sentences she was most proud of. I can't remember if that someone was me or not.

I remember people laughing because the one she chose didnt make sense.

Then one of the cats woke me up to go out.

It is my first and hopefully last ever Judith Butler dream.

DSDaisy · 30/03/2024 19:52

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

Astariel · 30/03/2024 20:26

Tbh, from the title of the book alone, you know that she’s already skewed the debate.

I am not afraid of gender. This is not phobia.

I simply do not believe that gender is anything other than dangerous nonsense, stereotypes and social control dressed up as ‘authentic identity’. For all Butler’s accusations of ‘false consciousness’ bleeding into ‘fascism’ in anyone who objects to this… ahem… maybe she wants to address the problems in her own arguments before criticising other positions.

ScathingAngelAgrona · 30/03/2024 20:46

Judith Butler is irrelevant. Reading her work is like skating through treacle, except the skating sounds more amusing.

yasnayapolyana · 30/03/2024 23:20

Martha Nussbaum article from 1999. Every word still relevant. "Divergent interpretations are simply not considered--even where, as in the cases of Foucault and Freud, she is advancing highly contestable interpretations that would not be accepted by many scholars. Thus one is led to the conclusion that the allusiveness of the writing cannot be explained in the usual way, by positing an audience of specialists eager to debate the details of an esoteric academic position. The writing is simply too thin to satisfy any such audience. It is also obvious that Butler’s work is not directed at a non-academic audience eager to grapple with actual injustices. Such an audience would simply be baffled by the thick soup of Butler’s prose, by its air of in-group knowingness, by its extremely high ratio of names to explanations."

https://newrepublic.com/article/150687/professor-parody

The Professor of Parody

The hip defeatism of Judith Butler

https://newrepublic.com/article/150687/professor-parody

catsnoozing · 31/03/2024 12:09

Stephen Sackur interviewed Kathleen Stock a while ago on Hard Talk. Unfortunately it's not available any more, I've just checked. I believe that he does his home work and the programme is meant to be challenging. Having said that, KS was well able to give reasoned answers and well developed arguments, and SS clearly listened to them!

MarieDeGournay · 31/03/2024 15:16

I don't like the photo illustrating the New Republic article on Judith Butler - the slogan on the placard that says 'Pedofilia' is going too far I think. She's a lot of things, but...

Is it OK to ask for that image - which is the original source's image, not the poster's - to be removed? I'm open to being told to cowboy up cupcake, but I actually find it upsetting.

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