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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

You might enjoy the replies to what I am sure Sport England thought was an innocuous tweet

91 replies

wiltonian · 27/03/2024 15:54

To save you time, they are pretty unanimous, no dissenters at all

https://x.com/Sport_England/status/1772973661311369496?s=20

If you want a geeky take on it, Sport England, as a public body, has a duty under the Equality Act 2010 not just not to discriminate against protected characteristics but to advance equality...

https://x.com/Sport_England/status/1772973661311369496?s=20

OP posts:
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Fast800 · 28/03/2024 00:55

Changeandagoodrest · 27/03/2024 17:59

But it's factual isn't it? It's more than likely your gender not your sex that impacts physical activity? I don't think fewer girls play because their sex is female. I'd imagine transgender girls are the same with a minority being transgender girls who excel at sports.

Edited

It maybe, it may not. Sounds like it’s something which should be accurately researched rather than guessed. It’s another example of trans peoples health not being full researched and supported through lack of accurate data.

Esgaroth · 28/03/2024 01:03

Even if you look only at gender, i.e. the system of socialising the sexes into different roles and placing different expectations upon them, boys who identify as transgender can only be subjected to female socialisation if the person fully believes that they are female.

Otherwise they are treated as non-conforming males, which is quite different. They will never be treated as female by the majority of people in their lives, who will be aware of their sex.

Esgaroth · 28/03/2024 01:06

Which is to say that I agree it's a combination of sex and gender that means girls are less likely to be active, but that essentially it comes to the same thing because only girls are fully socialised as girls.

BellaAmorosa · 28/03/2024 03:29

Having to relearn your swimming stroke technique after puberty because your pelvis is a little wider....

Anyhoo...
Gender 1 = synonym for sex
Gender 2 = gender stereotypes - expectations of behaviour, based on your sex;
Gender 3 = gender presentation (clothes, hair, etc)
Gender 4 = gender identity.

Changeandagoodrest is conflating 2 and 4.

PaminaMozart · 28/03/2024 04:22

Gender is the socially constructed set of expectations and values applied to someone because of their sex

Worth highlighting.

crunchermuncher · 28/03/2024 08:51

Gender is such a crap non specific word, for the reasons outlined above.

Different people use it to refer to different concepts.

Women and girls are oppressed because of their sex - otherwise how would society otherwise know which stereotypes to subject us to?It's not coincidence that only women and girls are subjected to female sex stereotypes.

Girls are objectified and sexualised because of their sex. That's a thing that teenage girls have to cope with that teenage boys don't. Because of their sex.

SinnerBoy · 28/03/2024 10:47

wiltonian · Yesterday 16:15

Actually, can someone tweet that at them, I can't for work reasons...

I've done it for you (us) just now.

SinnerBoy · 28/03/2024 11:08

CheeseChamp · Today 00:04

I was sporty in primary school. Fast runner, liked to play cricket, dance classes. Moved to middle school and was forced to change into my pe kit aged 9 in a class with boys. That was the first year I felt it wasn't worth it.

Hell's Bells! When was that? I'd have beaten a path the head with steam coming out of my ears.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 28/03/2024 13:15

CheeseChamp · 28/03/2024 00:04

I was sporty in primary school. Fast runner, liked to play cricket, dance classes.

Moved to middle school and was forced to change into my pe kit aged 9 in a class with boys. That was the first year I felt it wasn't worth it.

Swimming was excruciating for me. From that age I became deeply afraid of getting changed with other girls or having them see my body.

Age 10 we did sports only with other girls. What is this talk of girls doing football mixed with boys? Does that happen now?? We got to play volleyball, netball and hockey, tennis and field sports in summer. Loved the sports, did not like the changing and enforced communal showers, with developing breasts, hair, and not being a cool girl (cool girls were sporty and pretty mean) it was made very clear that sport was not for me. By other girls. So that's not a gender stereotype issue is it.

When I was diagnosed with a bone condition that got me out of pe forever I was unbelievably happy. That was the end of sports for me.

All pre period, too! It wasn't a gender thing, it was a sexual development and puberty thing.

Edited

Moved to middle school and was forced to change into my pe kit aged 9 in a class with boys. That was the first year I felt it wasn't worth it.

That's illegal. You should have had single-sex changing from eight onwards.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 28/03/2024 13:18

I took up running as an adult and stopped when I was cat-called by White Van Man one night. He didn't ask my gender identity first.

Seconding periods and boobs as reasons why we stop sports.

crunchermuncher · 28/03/2024 23:31

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 28/03/2024 13:15

Moved to middle school and was forced to change into my pe kit aged 9 in a class with boys. That was the first year I felt it wasn't worth it.

That's illegal. You should have had single-sex changing from eight onwards.

I'm sure we didn't have single sex changing at lower middle school (years 4&5) but I'm an old git.

When did the single sex from 8 years rule come in, anyone know?

CheeseChamp · 28/03/2024 23:52

That would have been 1991, I'm sure there were no such rules back then. These were the days of creepy pe teachers that would check you were wet when you came out of the shower.

SoreAndTired1 · 29/03/2024 00:11

Changeandagoodrest · 27/03/2024 17:59

But it's factual isn't it? It's more than likely your gender not your sex that impacts physical activity? I don't think fewer girls play because their sex is female. I'd imagine transgender girls are the same with a minority being transgender girls who excel at sports.

Edited

@Changeandagoodrest You have it completely the wrong way around. We play sport with our sex-based BODIES. Not a gender 'identity' in our head. Sex impacts sport. An 'identity' does not.

BringMeSunshineAllDayLong · 29/03/2024 00:23

And it all detracts from what we should be discussing which is that girls are much less active than boys and the less affluent are hugely less active than their wealthy counterparts particularly non white children.
That's awful.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 29/03/2024 02:11

crunchermuncher · 28/03/2024 23:31

I'm sure we didn't have single sex changing at lower middle school (years 4&5) but I'm an old git.

When did the single sex from 8 years rule come in, anyone know?

I've misremembered that. It's single-sex toilets from eight and "suitable" changing rooms from 11. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/parent-first-approach-at-the-core-of-new-guidance-on-gender-questioning-children

Given the number of girls going through puberty below 11, I think that changing rooms should be required from eight as well.

Parent first approach at the core of new guidance on gender questioning children

Schools and colleges told that parents should be involved in decisions affecting their children.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/parent-first-approach-at-the-core-of-new-guidance-on-gender-questioning-children

songaboutjam · 29/03/2024 03:17

Seconding periods and boobs as reasons why we stop sports.

Thirding it. Imagine two hypothetical children, a boy and a girl*:

The boy hits puberty. Suddenly he's stronger and faster. He may find it exhilarating to test his new limits. He's pumped full of testosterone, making him more aggressive and less risk averse. He may enjoy team sports more as a result. If he finds it difficult to manage his newfound anger and aggression, a sympathetic teacher may encourage him to channel it into physical activity. (Maybe one of our resident male contributors can also confirm whether or not heavy exercise and tiring oneself out can reduce the number of unwanted erections?)

The girl hits puberty. Suddenly she's getting attention from boys and grown men. She may feel self-conscious in her PE kit. Her breasts hurt when she runs and bounce when she jumps, and they hurt even more at certain times of the month. Her hips widen; she has to relearn efficient techniques for moving about. Her period causes her cramps and if she's unlucky, serious pain. It may be infrequent or unpredictable for the first few years. She may bleed through her PE clothes in front of boys or bullies. She may be allowed to skip PE class, but if she's forced to take part anyway, she'll probably start resenting her PE teachers. If she can't use tampons (out of TSS risk, sexual trauma, cultural reasons or an abnormally narrow vaginal passage) then her swimming career is over before it's started. Even then, there's no guarantee she won't bleed around a tampon or need to change one in the middle of an important race.

*Obviously, the boy and the girl are not real, nor reflective of a universal experience. Some boys hate sport and / or never develop the aggression required for certain games, like rugby. Some girls get luckier in their new physiques and are able to train their way to the Olympics. It's just meant as an illustration of how biology can encourage sport in one sex while discouraging it in the other.

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