Video - Stella O’Malley & Kara Dansky discuss “Should We Use the Language of Gender?”

[UtopiaPlanitia]

Came across this video hosted by Missident Magazine and thought I’d post it here for those who might be interested in this discussion.

So far, it’s interesting to see Stella saying that language is irrelevant to fighting WPATH etc. She compares a focus on language as being comparable to Judith Butler’s argument that a performance creates reality.

Kara, possibly given her legal background, sees definitions and the correct use of terms that describe reality as important tools in fighting for protection of women and children.

The host asks some very interesting questions too.

Kara speaks so clearly and directly on everything connected to this subject. Her clarity makes me feel calm (weird I know!). She makes me believe it's possible to win against the incoherent assault that is gender ideology.

I know exactly what you mean. She has a similar effect on me too 😊

I find listening to Helen Joyce also very helpful and 'clarifying'. They’re both sensible, well-educated, level-headed women with huge life experience who speak clearly and cogently: to have them fighting to preserve women and children and LGB rights is greatly reassuring.

At 46 minutes in there isn’t much discussion at this point, Stella is airing grievances from recent events which the host is trying to make relevant to having Kara in this podcast by reframing some of them as questions.

This happened in the KJK discussion too, Stella takes a long time to say anything and is angry, she feels that doesn’t get credit for the work she’s done and she feels she’s the biggest target of smears at the moment.

Kara is allowing Stella to speak but has reasonably pointed out that Stella can’t hold Women’s Declaration International (the org for whom Kara works) responsible for the things Stella is mentioning.

I was hoping for more discussion and less 'rant' (Stella herself has said she’s ranting at times). I feel the podcast is getting bogged down in what Stella wants to talk about rather than an open-flowing discussion.

We’ll see if that changes in the remainder of the video. I’d really like to hear from Kara more.

I think the attacks on Jennifer Bilek are unhinged. No one has done more in terms of following the money, yet she's basically being called worthless here.

To be frank Stella needs to stop giving interviews for a while. She's too angry and she's destroying her own credibility.

I’ve just finished the Jennifer Bilek section and I agree that it’s OTT. I don’t understand how Stella can plausibly argue that Bilek isn’t doing useful work about unearthing funding.

Also, I don’t like Stella trying to shut Kara down from commenting on Bilek (and whether or not something might be compelled speech) by implying that only Stella has been attacked (by feminists) and therefore has more right to speak on these matters than Kara. She seems to be unaware that Kara has been criticised for working across the political aisle in the USA and criticised for her free speech position.

On the whole, this wasn’t the thoughtful discussion I hoped it would be. I’ve seen a few more videos listed on the Missident channel so I’ll try those instead.

I agree, Stella did seem unaware of how much, and for how long, Kara has been heavily criticised for working with those outside of left-wing circles. It has been covered extensively so there's no excuse for ignorance. I think she finds it hard to perceive the world outside of her own experience.

I was also surprised at her description of the 2018 documentary Trans Kids as being about her. Sure, her experience was used as a device to explore the rise in youth gender dysphoria but her own story is commonplace. When you think about what the film exposed regarding the protest in Bristol, the effect of transition on family life, and the stories of the numerous young people who took part, claiming it was about her revealed a narcissism that might explain why she perceives criticism as a concerted smear campaign. She repeatedly references herself and her suffering throughout this interview, whereas Kara always focussed on the issues.

I thought the interviewer did a good job of pushing back but the anger that provoked was very surprising to see. Kara was a breath of fresh air in comparison.

I was impressed with the interviewer, Rebecca Lee.
Very clued-up, focussed and interesting questioning.
I will definitely be watching more of her interviews.

I felt she was better, earlier on in the interview, at bringing Kara back in from a thread of what Stella was saying, but as Stella became more emotional and defensive- it became more difficult for Rebecca to interrupt and pick up a thread. Although I think it was an impossible task maybe.

I am another one who finds Kara and her clarity calming. Kara managed this difficult interview with dignity and, compassion too, I would say.

Overall, I found the experience of watching this uncomfortable and frustrating, as this could have been a very relevent and productive discussion. Also uncomfortable, because the dynamic happening was familiar. I have been around others who were in the self-state that Stella was in, and been in it myself too. I think most of us recognise it.

Taking a perspective outside of the issue being debated, my sense is that Stella has (understandably), become caught up in the drama triangle since the conference/twitter stuff.

This is the darkest aspect of twitter imo. It throws people into the drama triangle- and keeps them stuck there.

In my own experience, the only way to get out of the drama triangle is to step fully out of it and re-ground yourself.

I massively appreciate Stella's work and what she has done. The Wider Lens podcast has been my go to from very early on.

In this interview though, it was so clear to me- that what I call the 'veil of the cycle'- where anyone, no matter how psychologically astute, can be clouded by the victim/persecutor lens, was blocking Stella from being able to be present and engaged in the discussion.

The 'veil' of the drama cycle is the killer of openness, curiosity, and self-possession.
It was painful to me, to see Stella in that place. Although totally understandable and very human.

What I would hope for Stella, is that she could totally step back from twitter and any part of the row for a while. Stepping out of the triangle is the only way out. Then Stella can re-gather herself and come back to consider and discuss matters in the curious and thoughtful way she has been able to in the past.

Interestingly, it struck me in this interview, that the qualities that Kara presents would be what many would hope for and need from a therapist.

I would add- that Rebecca and Kara did exceptionally well at not being drawn into a role in the dynamic. Hence also why Kara was actually demonstrating good therapist qualities!

Stella herself says that she’s focussed on one particular set of issues and not interested in Radical Feminism so that would account for her lack of knowledge about Kara Dansky’s activism and work. It would have been nice if she’d familiarised herself with some basic biographical info about Kara though, before the discussion. It often felt as though she was treating Kara as a stand-in for all feminists that Stella dislikes which was unfair and unproductive.

Stella has revised her descriptions of her intentions for that documentary (over the years and depending on who she is talking to). She has used it to defend herself from criticism on a range of subjects, some of which are mutually exclusive. I’m not saying she shouldn’t be thanked for making the documentary, it was unlike anything else being aired at the time and I think she really was trying to help by makng it, but I really don’t think it excuses Stella from criticism of statements and behaviour that have happened since it was made. I also thought it was a bit odd that she referred to having Keira Bell staying in her house and her suggestion of bringing Keira into the discussion to defend Stella. Does she see that continued association/friendship as a shield against censure in some way?

I also enjoyed the interviewer’s input too, she made a good contribution to teasing out information and kept her cool in the face of some strong aggression.

Thank you for taking the time to give your thoughts and perspective on the discussion - I found them very interesting and useful to consider 👍

And thanks to you for posting the link Utopia!

I've subscribed to the channel, as I'm hoping there will be more interviews, and I think Rebecca is a very talented interviewer.

The Amy Sousa one on there is good too. I am already a fan of Amy, she is another great communicator who speaks with clarity.
I really appreciate her particular angle on embodiment and the importance of trusting instinct.

What an insightful comment. Much food for thought. Thank you.
Off to listen

Helpful discussion from PPs.

I'd agree that Stella might well benefit from stepping away from the social media and podcast round as it seems to keep re-stimulating the distress for her rather than talking it away. I don't know how possible it is with her schedule of talks etc. But I hope she doesn't take up much of the March 23 event talking about this again as that's billed as an educational event for a group of people who would benefit from it.

Badly chaired conferences are wretched for speakers hogging time and using it as an opportunity to promote themselves and their own agenda. Stella needs a very good Chair and to accept correction when she's off-track. Podcasts seem to encourage a lack of discipline in the name of free-flowing conversation.

https://can-sg.org/can-sg-conference/

I just listened to that interview, and I found some of it ineresting and some really painful. Stella O'Malley had only just seen Jennifer Bilek's writing that day and she was obviously still very shocked and distressed. If Jennifer Bilek did compare Genspect to WPATH (I haven't read it) then I'm not surprised if Stella instinctively hit back. Twitter/X is a dangerous place to be and Kara appeared to be more used to attacks and better prepared to deal with them.

I'm glad Stella raised the question of masculinized detranstitioners, though I wish she had done it less agressively and in a more open way. I would have liked to hear Kara's response as a radical feminist to other women who masculinize, for example some lesbians who (I can't remember where I heard about this, sorry!) take anabolic steroids to masculinise but until recently did not identify as trans or as men.

Kara and the host Rebecca did their best but it was a bad interview for Stella and if she was reading I'd send her an un-Mumsnetty hug. She was really rattled, she is usually so thoughtful herself. I hope she is feeling recovered next week for the CAN-SG conference.

Amaryllis, I’m having a read of what’s publicly available of the Bilek article now myself (the full article is behind a paywall).

Here’s a link to the article for those interested:

https://jbilek.substack.com/p/genspect-the-new-lgbt-ngo-framework

The article is framed from this perspective by Bilek:

'I write about the money that drives gender ideology propaganda, which makes it look like a medical issue (and simultaneously akin to the human rights issues for lesbian, gay and bisexual individuals), so I don’t invest in the idea that children are having a medical problem. Therefore, I no longer support Genspect. Of course, once you start treating a propaganda problem medically, you create a medical problem on top of a propaganda problem, which then feeds the narrative that it’s a medical problem.'