Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does the Transgender community have a problem with well evidenced science? Does the community only ever accept favourable reports, AKA confirmation bias, or is it something deeper?

443 replies

HydraDominatus · 14/03/2024 13:25

Every piece of science or news thats not entirely supportive is buried under accusations of transphobia or bias

Why is this a political debate rather than a mental and physical health issue?

Cancer care isn't bias and politicised, trans health care shouldn't be either. Surely it's all about properly designed and researched programmes, with the outcome not predetermined, that we should be entirely standing behind?

Would the community ever stand behind rigorous, transparent, and ethically conducted research into transgender health care that did not align with its previous, deeply held views? If not, isn't that a problem?

tl;dr Is the Transgender community bias to it's own detriment?

(inspired by recent UK changes which do seem to be well researched, evidenced and guided by true support for people with genuine issues, it just does not line up with existing trans community narrative)

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
iverpickle · 15/03/2024 07:22

Catiette · 14/03/2024 16:10

OK, massive post. Sorry. Got carried away thinking things through. May change my views on reflection, too! Thanks if you can bear to read... I've added sub-headings so you can skip! 😂

So.

I'd recommend reading the link far, far, far below. I'd be especially interested to see what @DadJoke thinks about it. I don't agree with everything in it (& am also uncomfortably conscious of my own ignorance - it delves into science, medicine, anthropology, philosophy...!) but I do find it a fascinating way of potentially reconciling the different positions on this thread. Or at least those I was seeing 20 posts ago last time I looked!

In short (ish), as I understand it, the article argues how, in a sense, both positions may be seen as correct: gender identity does, & doesn't, exist! Further down is a short (OK, actually not remotely, but it's all needed for it to make sense) extract in italics from the whole, in which the author uses PTSD to explain what they mean by this.

TLDR

TLDR: With apologies for using the uncomfortably reductive "real" & "not real" for simplicity's sake... As I understand it, the author below argues that PTSD is "real" in that it describes a universal human experience - as, indeed, identifying with a particular sex appears to be (not everyone may experience PTSD or have a gender identity, but these do exist as potential, or latent, "realities"). But particular manifestations of PTSD may be culturally constructed; they're influenced by - they're in a sense, the product of - a particular place, time & context (again, I'd say, this seems relevant to gender identity).

My Thoughts

If we're to accept this perspective - & I think it's helpful in many ways - I'd also say that my own concern is the enforced imposition of gender identity on the whole of our society. Other distinct manifestations of universal human experiences are acknowledged & judged/treated/accommodated/condemned on their own "merits" (itself a problematic process fraught with prejudice and contradiction, of course!) They're not, however, imposed on the rest of the population, in that those of us who don't experience them aren't defined by them & categorised by our experience, or lack thereof, of them - our own reality isn't being subsumed into them (I'm not, for example, labelled an infidel by the faithful - and I'd be concerned if I were; certain other theocratic societies which do take this approach could be see as authoritarian).

This, to me, is the key difference. I'm interested in the concept of gender identity as a contemporary manifestation of one facet of the glorious variety of human experience, and that's fine (although I'd personally say it's become a problematic umbrella term for a wealth of more complex, disparate, experiences). Regardless, though, gender identity isn't real for me - & yet I'm being told it's fundamental to who I am. So I have the utterly destabilising sense both of my own reality being denied, & of society itself being reshaped to accommodate something I perceive as wholly individual & potentially transitory. And this in place of biological sex, tested by centuries of scientific understanding!

Link

https://bprice.substack.com/p/trans-is-something-we-made-up

Extract

"Whether or not they’ve given the matter any thought, most 21st century Western people probably share the belief that PTSD is a predictable human response to trauma. It’s widely viewed as a human universal. Trauma reactions have been documented for thousands of years.

Well, yes and no. PTSD is a bit like windigo. There’s a universal human experience at the core, and there’s a bunch of cultural stuff laid on top.

Let’s look at Western symptoms in response to trauma at a few different time points:

In about 440 BC Herodotus, in writing about the battle of Marathon, described a soldier with symptoms in response to emotional trauma that developed during a sword fight: he suffered psychogenic blindness and frightening visions of a giant enemy soldier.

Flash forward a couple thousand years: In World War I, “shell shock” was described as a trauma response to war: “The main causes are the fright and anxiety brought about by the explosion of enemy shells and mines, and seeing maimed or dead comrades ... The resulting symptoms are states of sudden muteness, deafness ... general tremor, inability to stand or walk, episodes of loss of consciousness, and convulsions.”

Then, just a few decades later, in the post‒Vietnam War era, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) was officially recognized in the DSM-III, the diagnostic manual used by psychologists and psychiatrists. The full criteria are somewhat lengthy, but basically, instead of being shut down like the World War I vets, the new PTSD diagnosis required symptoms of hyperarousal, including “difficulty falling or staying asleep … irritability or outbursts of anger…difficulty concentrating … hyper vigilance … exaggerated startle response … [and] physiological activity upon exposure to events that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event.”

In the new conception of PTSD, there was also an aspect of “reliving” the old trauma in response to triggering events.

The stereotype of the World War I vet was of someone who was so shut down he withdrew, and his physical symptoms corresponded to that. The stereotype of the Vietnam War vet was of someone who was so high strung he would dive for cover when he heard a weather helicopter and become combative and confused.

And now today, in the early 21st century, compared to the past 2,500 years in which trauma responses were widely acknowledged to occur in response to an “event that is outside the range of usual human experience” such as war, the definition of PTSD has expanded to include responses to all sorts of lesser events.

As the Mayo Clinic website describes it, “Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a mental health condition that's triggered by a terrifying event — either experiencing it or witnessing it. Symptoms may include flashbacks, nightmares and severe anxiety, as well as uncontrollable thoughts about the event.”

No longer just survivors of extreme events “outside the range of usual human experience” but people who’ve suffered more common human experiences, like bullying, are now conceived of as being vulnerable to PTSD as well.

Again: “people are conscious of the way they are classified, and they alter their behavior and self-conceptions in response to their classification.

This might explain, for example, why there was no such thing as being “triggered” by emotionally difficult lecture material in 1975, and yet we’ve heard about it often in recent years. Our current cultural understanding is that it’s possible to have a trauma response to upsetting educational content — it’s now become a thing for us, just as the fear of becoming a cannibal is a thing in another culture — and so if a lecture is upsetting, it can (really) result in being triggered now.

No one is pretending. Our cultural expectations shape our reality. Both those things can be true.

There’s always a human universal underlying these phenomena. The human universal here is that humans sometimes have extreme responses to traumatizing events. But the specific ways they respond, and even what they consider to be trauma, change depending on time, place, culture, and context. Trauma responses are very real. But culture lays a lot of things on top of it. Culture tells you how to respond, but you’re not aware that’s happening, so the response feels like it’s coming from inside you.

Edited

Thank you for this. Extremely interesting

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2024 07:40

DadJoke · 15/03/2024 01:00

He was a sick fuck who believed that his unethical experiment would demonstrate that gender identity was cultural, He was wrong.

As opposed to a sick fuck who thinks that their experiment will improve the quality of life but they have no evidence to demonstrate this and instead they talk to their friends about how else they can experiment on children?

Hmmm. Sounds a lot like WPATH that.

HydraDominatus · 15/03/2024 07:40

DadJoke · 15/03/2024 01:08

I have absolutely no obligation to answer your or anyone’s questions and neither does any other poster. I have been AFK.

Yes, of course.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, however. For example if an apparently rigorous study suggested climate change wasn’t real, or gender identity was not innate, there would be a seismic shift in our understanding of science, and I would expect it to be challenged and reproduced by other scientists.

However, other claims related to transgender issues would not require that standard of proof.

Built up some Dutch courage at 1am did you? Why so afraid to answer before?

could you show us any evidence, any at all, where the transgender community accepted scientific evidence that went against their sincerely held beliefs?

it’s an extra ordinary claim to say there is “woman essence” in the brains of some men, and there’s no evidence at all of that.

I’ll wait…

OP posts:
OldCrone · 15/03/2024 08:00

OldCrone · 14/03/2024 20:23

This is number 8 on that list.

https://philarchive.org/archive/BYRTOO-7

He mentions Stoller and Greenson's original (1964) definition of gender identity, which is the one described by Katie Alcock in the article I posted a link to earlier in the thread:

Gender identity is the sense of knowing to which sex one belongs, that is, the awareness ‘I am a male’ or ‘I am a female’

He goes on to discuss how that meaning has now been lost, and replaced with the near-circular WPATH definition: “a person’s deeply felt, internal, intrinsic
sense of their own gender”, where “gender may reference gender identity, gender expression, and/or social gender role, including understandings and expectations culturally tied to people who were assigned male or female at birth”, which completes the circularity.

He concludes: “Gender identity” has gone from being well-defined to
being ill-defined.

I thought the name Alex Byrne sounded familiar. He wrote this article which I remember from a few years ago.
https://medium.com/arc-digital/what-is-gender-identity-10ce0da71999

He's also written a book.
http://www.alexbyrne.org/trouble-with-gender.html

@DadJoke
I was asked which scientists were researching gender identity. I provided a list of 3490 peer reviewed papers written by such scientists. It’s pretty much the most comprehensive list I could have given.

Now do the same for papers which dispute the existence of gender identity except as a belief. A search on pubmed which returns results will do just fine for me.

I've quoted my reply to your post, which you seem to have missed. As others have already pointed out, you simply posted a list of publications which contained at least one of your search terms. You need to actually read them to see what they say about 'gender', 'identity' or 'gender identity' and whether they all support your assertion.

The one I read (Alex Byrne: The Origin of "Gender Identity") was near the top of your list, and disagrees that gender identity is a meaningful concept in the way you insist it is. Would you like to engage with his arguments?

Helleofabore · 15/03/2024 08:06

Siri, show me a misogynist without the capability to think critically.

lifeturnsonadime · 15/03/2024 08:17

Helleofabore · 15/03/2024 08:06

Siri, show me a misogynist without the capability to think critically.

Yup, it's the same old on this thread as on others.

BackToLurk · 15/03/2024 08:24

A summary

”every scientist says everyone has an innate gender identity”
”can you evidence that claim”
”here’s a list of academic papers across a number of disciplines that mention gender and/or identity”
”yea, that doesn’t support your claim”
”I don’t have to answer your questions, you’ll just have to believe me without me engaging critically with the debate”

Plus ça change

Helleofabore · 15/03/2024 08:29

DadJoke · 15/03/2024 01:00

He was a sick fuck who believed that his unethical experiment would demonstrate that gender identity was cultural, He was wrong.

Why would you think that a boy who was gaslighted and horrifically abused his whole childhood is showing what you think this means?

The boy did not have female genitals and would have known this. Children understand and compare. Oh wait…. You are supposed to be a ‘dad’ so you should know this, shouldn’t you?

So, tell us why you believe a boy without a dick and balls being told they were female when they understood that their bodies didn’t look like female body, didn’t then develop like a female body is showing anything but that children who are horrifically abused understand that there are things that don’t add up.

That they knew they were twins and looked identical yet one without a penis was supposedly a girl. When we know that children reliably correctly sex adults, why would extreme trans activists declaring this experiment proves innateness of gender identity not consider that a boy looked at their brother and recognised that he too had all the same male facial cues that even children have and felt dissonance with what he was being told.

That other boy and girl twins never looked so similar.

There are so many obvious issues with what happened to these twins. Would you like to show where the ones I have mentioned were considered, analysed and controlled?

If you are going to post any study on MN, you better be prepared to defend the challenges people make. If you are incapable of defending it, why post it?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/03/2024 08:33

I was asked which scientists were researching gender identity. I provided a list of 3490 peer reviewed papers written by such scientists. It’s pretty much the most comprehensive list I could have given.

Now do the same for papers which dispute the existence of gender identity except as a belief. A search on pubmed which returns results will do just fine for me.

Dadjoke, I made it quite clear I didn't consider this an adequate response to the question because it proves very little. Why would I do that?

And just to point out, that it's your claim, that males can have what's essentially female sex souls trapped in the wrong body and vice versa, that is the extraordinary claim here. Not mine.

But I know you are going to deflect again because that's what you do. I don't expect anything in the nature of good faith engagement or rational argument here.

HydraDominatus · 15/03/2024 08:41

SpicyMoth · 14/03/2024 20:19

""trans is not real""

Literally no one on these boards has argued that trans is not real?
I'm genuinely so sick of seeing this brought up again and again as if anyone is arguing this.
NO ONE is saying trans people don't exist.

It's the default attack against anyone who asks reasonable questions like "why? and How"

Scream "TRANSPHOBE" then run away.

If your position cannot withstand scrutiny it is by default a poor faith one.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 15/03/2024 08:43

“I was asked which scientists were researching gender identity. I provided a list of 3490 peer reviewed papers written by such scientists. It’s pretty much the most comprehensive list I could have given.”

“Now do the same for papers which dispute the existence of gender identity except as a belief. A search on pubmed which returns results will do just fine for me.”

Nope. That is not and was never the way it works. That is called pure laziness. If follows some other posters who attempt to do the same thing and also fuck it up. Because they don’t do the work and read the studies to make sure they say what they are trying to make them say.

If you post a study on MN that you say says x, you at least should post where and how it says x. Otherwise all you have fucking done is shown you can use a search engine but don’t understand the studies you post. That is lazy and it certainly doesn’t show any person who does this in any kind of positive light regards having a depth of understanding about what they are talking about. Rather the opposite. It shows a person who has no fucking idea but is happy to regurgitate falsehoods and twisted takes based on falsity because it fits their philosophical belief.

Just like you couldn’t read the studies into male secretions, just like you couldn’t read and dissect the WPATH files but posted flawed rebuttals.

It shows a willingness to accept anything that fits your political and philosophical belief, it also shows that you don’t seem to be capable of even interrogating that political and philosophical belief to rigorously assess it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/03/2024 08:44

If you post a study on MN that you say says x, you at least should post where and how it says x. Otherwise all you have fucking done is shown you can use a search engine but don’t understand the studies you post. That is lazy and it certainly doesn’t show any person who does this in any kind of positive light regards having a depth of understanding about what they are talking about. Rather the opposite. It shows a person who has no fucking idea but is happy to regurgitate falsehoods and twisted takes based on falsity because it fits their philosophical belief.

All of this.

SaffronSpice · 15/03/2024 08:47

I provided a list of 3490 peer reviewed papers written by such scientists.

Have you read any of them?

ZippyGoose · 15/03/2024 08:52

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 14/03/2024 23:25

It is the “loud Trans campaigners” who have dictated societal response to people who identify as transgender. It is they who have managed to persuade so many people that it is “transphobic” to use third person pronouns the way they have been used for most of my lifetime (and I am not young!), because some people think they have a right to dictate how everyone else sees them and relates to them. Unfortunately, most trans people now demand that everyone treats them as they wish to be treated; this is unrealistic, and often it descends into coercive behaviour, with threats of “going no contact” if family members do not toe the line unilaterally imposed by the transgender people themselves or their “allies”. In my experience, the allies are the most dogmatic and coercive.

Look i’m not saying you’re wrong. But I AM saying you don’t know ‘the majority of’ trans people. Neither do I. You do know the vocal group, but neither of us have any idea whether that group is a majority or minority. My faith in the human race dictates that I tend to think a-holes are a minority of any group so I hope (though don’t know) it’s the latter.

It makes me uncomfortable taking a group of vocal nutcases as a proxy for the views of an entire group of people. Many of whom (I believe) are likely to be mentally unwell and in need of support. Just like i’d feel it was wrong to take the rantings of Isis to be representative of the views of all muslims, or Donald Trump to represent white men as a group, etc etc…

Helleofabore · 15/03/2024 08:53

SaffronSpice · 15/03/2024 08:47

I provided a list of 3490 peer reviewed papers written by such scientists.

Have you read any of them?

I suspect the answer will be ‘they are too long and here is a rebuttal that says all I need to say’…. When the rebuttals are using flawed logic, and links in evidence that doesn’t say what the writer of the rebuttal thinks it says.

Catiette · 15/03/2024 08:57

I'd be interested to hear a counter-argument to our collective impression (now based on a fair amount of shared reading of the material in the link) that the 3000+ articles do appear to use term gender identity to mean quite a wide range of things in a very wide range of contexts, without offering a consensus definition, and, indeed, quite often acknowledging the lack thereof. To me, they do suggest that gender identity is, as my own reflective article suggested, something of an evolving umbrella term that's being used to cover a wide range of human experience we're still seeking to understand (as opposed to being a proven, categorical concept).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/03/2024 08:58

This is my main bugbear with arguing with TRAs who rely on "the SCIENCE". They don't really understand the studies or the area of study, so they will direct you to specific studies without explaining how they support their claim. Or to a vague claim that all scientists believe this. Or to an article or video by another TRA which does pretty much the same but it's impossible to drill down on/interrogate.

SaffronSpice · 15/03/2024 09:04

Pubmed central returns nearly 100,000 responses if you search for ‘Christianity’

BackToLurk · 15/03/2024 09:04

Catiette · 15/03/2024 08:57

I'd be interested to hear a counter-argument to our collective impression (now based on a fair amount of shared reading of the material in the link) that the 3000+ articles do appear to use term gender identity to mean quite a wide range of things in a very wide range of contexts, without offering a consensus definition, and, indeed, quite often acknowledging the lack thereof. To me, they do suggest that gender identity is, as my own reflective article suggested, something of an evolving umbrella term that's being used to cover a wide range of human experience we're still seeking to understand (as opposed to being a proven, categorical concept).

Exactly this. And @DadJoke you weren’t asked for a ‘list of scientists researching gender identity’.

SaffronSpice · 15/03/2024 09:06

I have conducted systematic reviews. For some topics we would end up with several hundred abstracts from the original searches. However when screening through them you would be able to quickly reduce that number, often to a few dozen, as large numbers of abstracts would be of narrative reviews, commentaries, opinion pieces, irrelevant topics, etc. Then when you got the full papers many would be poorly conducted studies, under powered studies, different condition, lack follow up etc.

Producing a list of thousands and saying ‘look lots of research’ suggests you either don’t know how to use a search engine and/or you don’t know what proper research looks like.

ZippyGoose · 15/03/2024 09:08

HydraDominatus · 15/03/2024 07:40

Built up some Dutch courage at 1am did you? Why so afraid to answer before?

could you show us any evidence, any at all, where the transgender community accepted scientific evidence that went against their sincerely held beliefs?

it’s an extra ordinary claim to say there is “woman essence” in the brains of some men, and there’s no evidence at all of that.

I’ll wait…

Edited

ok so I don’t know any trans people personally, but my impression is it’s quite a hard way to live. Painful surgeries etc.

Whatever the reason for people feeling this way, I would tend to feel that it must be very real to them, even if we don’t understand why? Maybe one day we’ll know. I imagine the science will reveal a real medical reason for a certain %, with then another % being that fundamentally many young people have mental health and sexuality confusions that they wrongly believe can be a result of being the wrong gender as opposed to just how many young people feel. Who knows. After all we still haven’t identified the gene or scientific reason for homosexuality either (not conflating the two things, just giving another example of a thing we don’t understand).

Whether the correct response to any of this is to give trans people support and counselling or to provide NHS budget to help them with cutting bits of their anatomy off is a discussion for a whole other day.

I’d tend to feel most trans people deserve sympathy and kindness rather than othering as treatment of some kind of homogenous ‘community’ online.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 15/03/2024 09:12

Years ago I knew people who were into spiritualism who kept telling me to look at the "science". They were nice people, in professional jobs, and not stupid but they just didn't know what science looks like, how to tell good quality evidence from poor.

What's more worrying to me is how come people who should know better, like the Endocrine Society in the US, or the American Paediatric Association, or all the bits of the NHS that claim to be following WPATH standards of care, or the editors and reviewers of big journals like Science, have all come to accept the conclusions from such poor quality science. It wont last but it's instructive to consider how it happened in the first place.

ZippyGoose · 15/03/2024 09:14

Britinme · 15/03/2024 01:05

I think trans is real and trans people exist. I think they are a product of lack of understanding of the rich tapestry of the way it's ok for people to present themselves and a confusion of that with stereotypes. I also think that they don't literally change sex and thus have no business entering spaces or positions reserved for a particular biological sex. How they choose to dress or present and who they choose to have sex with is irrelevant.

I’m with you on this.

A kind social response would be to have available ‘third spaces’ for trans people, though I gather some loud voices within the trans community wouldn’t be in favour of this solution

LassZombie · 15/03/2024 09:15

wincarwoo · 14/03/2024 14:32

@DadJoke does our work for us every time.

Yep.

HydraDominatus · 15/03/2024 09:21

ZippyGoose · 15/03/2024 09:08

ok so I don’t know any trans people personally, but my impression is it’s quite a hard way to live. Painful surgeries etc.

Whatever the reason for people feeling this way, I would tend to feel that it must be very real to them, even if we don’t understand why? Maybe one day we’ll know. I imagine the science will reveal a real medical reason for a certain %, with then another % being that fundamentally many young people have mental health and sexuality confusions that they wrongly believe can be a result of being the wrong gender as opposed to just how many young people feel. Who knows. After all we still haven’t identified the gene or scientific reason for homosexuality either (not conflating the two things, just giving another example of a thing we don’t understand).

Whether the correct response to any of this is to give trans people support and counselling or to provide NHS budget to help them with cutting bits of their anatomy off is a discussion for a whole other day.

I’d tend to feel most trans people deserve sympathy and kindness rather than othering as treatment of some kind of homogenous ‘community’ online.

Sympathy, kindness, support, help that works - yes. But just like I would not affirm someone with anorexia, or someone with depression, affirmation is not what people with these feelings need.

They need proper high quality therapeutic help to assure them they are not born in the wrong body, there is nothing wrong with displaying stereotypical characteristics of the opposite sex if you want to, but that you are not and never will be a different sex to the one you were born with and that gender is nothing but a bunch of stereotypes that Feminists have spent hundreds of years trying to get rid of.

But any attempt to do that is shouted down with accusations of transphobia, because anything other than affirmation and literally believing that black is white is not good enough.

OP posts:
Swipe left for the next trending thread