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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does the Transgender community have a problem with well evidenced science? Does the community only ever accept favourable reports, AKA confirmation bias, or is it something deeper?

443 replies

HydraDominatus · 14/03/2024 13:25

Every piece of science or news thats not entirely supportive is buried under accusations of transphobia or bias

Why is this a political debate rather than a mental and physical health issue?

Cancer care isn't bias and politicised, trans health care shouldn't be either. Surely it's all about properly designed and researched programmes, with the outcome not predetermined, that we should be entirely standing behind?

Would the community ever stand behind rigorous, transparent, and ethically conducted research into transgender health care that did not align with its previous, deeply held views? If not, isn't that a problem?

tl;dr Is the Transgender community bias to it's own detriment?

(inspired by recent UK changes which do seem to be well researched, evidenced and guided by true support for people with genuine issues, it just does not line up with existing trans community narrative)

OP posts:
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sourdoughismyreligion · 14/03/2024 18:16

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth.

Oh wow, it seems I am transgender. 😂

Transgender Identity Issues in Psychology

APA resolution supporting full equality for transgender and gender-variant people, the cultural context surrounding transgender issues, the national transgender discrimination survey, the world professional association for transgender health issues ide...

https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/programs/transgender

Lion400 · 14/03/2024 18:23

WitchyWitcherson · 14/03/2024 14:48

But what is a "gender identity"?

Is it like "woman essence"?

😂🤷‍♀️

Lion400 · 14/03/2024 18:31

Sex is scientific fact. There are 2.

Gender is a human construct. I’m told there are well over a hundred genders. I can believe it. Us humans can make up any old sht we like.

Does the Transgender community have a problem with well evidenced science? Does the community only ever accept favourable reports, AKA confirmation bias, or is it something deeper?
AlisonDonut · 14/03/2024 18:39

No, no amount of evidence of harm, no accounts of personal mutilation disasters, no amount of lifelong damage will ever make them think about what the hell it is they are doing, especially to kids.

Even having the medics laugh about the size of the penile material that puberty blockers left them to work on, or discussing how to get 'consent" from a plethora of 'alters' will jolt them to the reality of the situation.

GenericMNwoman · 14/03/2024 18:44

sourdoughismyreligion · 14/03/2024 18:16

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth.

Oh wow, it seems I am transgender. 😂

Edited

does anyone have the list of acceptable gender expressions or behaviours? DH is cooking dinner and I’m wearing jeans and a hoodie with no makeup and no bra on. I’m worried that I’m now transgender.

OK tongue removed from cheek. I think there are societal expectations on men and women to behave in certain ways. And sometimes this is interesting in social science. However, if we’re dealing with biomedical science, personality doesn’t matter.

Catiette · 14/03/2024 18:47

@DadJoke, you're so right. As a rule, I never read or share unattributed reflective articles on the basis that they're not peer-reviewed science, and therefore, regrettably, invalid. I hadn't realised this is what that was - I'm sorry for the error. It'll reassure you to know that I actually disavow the social sciences entirely (and am honestly pretty cynical about any attempt by an layperson to synthesise a range of disciplines into an intelligently reasoned argument - especially when there's the possibility this may stimulate independent critical thought). I typically prefer to lay a few choice strawmen at my opponent's feet in a tenuously relevant rhetorical question or two. It's much safer all round.

JanesLittleGirl · 14/03/2024 18:50

I labour under the illusion that practical science seeks to obtain a clear understanding of a problem in order to find an effective solution. I don't see where the effort that has been put into defining gender identity has even defined that there is a problem that needs a solution.

DetOliviaBenson · 14/03/2024 19:03

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 13:42

Does the gender critical community have a problem with well evidenced science? Does the community only ever accept favourable reports, AKA confirmation bias, or is it something deeper?

In the red corner, the APA, the largest scientific psychological body in the world, with an evidence-based support of gender affirming care.
https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2024/02/policy-supporting-transgender-nonbinary

In the blue corner, the Pope:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/253845/pope-francis-gender-ideology-is-one-of-the-most-dangerous-ideological-colonizations-today

Do you agree with the Pope or the APA?

Do you agree the world is round? Congratulations you share the same views as some neo-nazis, terrorists, rapists and murderers to name just a few.

That's how ridiculous your post was.

DetOliviaBenson · 14/03/2024 19:06

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 14:25

Do you accept that pretty much every reputable scientific, medical and psychological body of any repute in the entire world uses "gender identity" to mean an innate sense a person's innate sense of their own gender, and not a "belief"?

If you don't believe in the validity gender identity, and consider being transgender as a belief, you will oppose any efforts to allow people to transition, and believe in RODG, despite is being thoroughly discredited. Your beliefs lead you to bad science and bad allies.

Some of you would even prefer that transgender should be reduced in number, that they are all problems in a sane world, happy or not. Would you ever say a gay person is a "problem in a sane world" or that every one is a difficulty because they require "special accommodation." Can't you see how chilling that is?

Joyce isn't a scientist. comes up with insane theories about fan fiction turning you trans, and yet she is a poster child for the GV movement. Why would you believe her expect for confirmation bias?

Helen Joyce: In the meantime, while we're trying to get through to the decision makers, we have to try to limit the harm, and that means reducing or keeping down the number of people who transition.
And that's for two reasons. One of them is that every one of those people is a person who's been damaged. But the second one is every one of those people is basically, you know, a huge problem to a sane world.
Like if you've got people that, and whether they're transitioned, whether they're happily transitioned, whether they're unhappily transitioned, whether they've detransitioned. If you've got people who've dissociated from their sex in some way, every one of those people is someone who needs special accommodation in a sane world where we re-acknowledge the truth of sex.
And I mean the people who’ve been damaged by it – the children who’ve been put through this – those people deserve every accommodation we can possibly make, but every one of them is a difficulty.

Are YOU a scientist?

toomanytrees · 14/03/2024 19:10

Transgenderism is a faith based belief and like any other faith based belief will be resistant to any scientific studies that contradict it. I think the sceptic community found this out when attempting to argue with religious people.

I also think there is a danger in ceding to "science" things that were common sense until 15 minutes ago. It makes us less reliant on our own observations and more open to manipulation. "The science" can be wrong or fraudulent as well as useful. "Experts" can be found to support any given position.

Humans don't need science to know the difference between men and women or to know that mutilating children is wrong. KJK puts it better: "I'm not a vet, but I know what a dog is".

Catiette · 14/03/2024 19:10

Now, having addressed the opening of your reply, I'll get on to the more respectful remainder of it, in a similarly respectful tone. I appreciate you reading it (and apologise that I've not had time to reread it myself before posting the below, & am rushing a bit, so hope I'll find my arguments stand on revisiting tomorrow - not ideal, but a fast-moving thread & little time!)

...

Of course the way that sexuality manifests is culturally dependent - we didn't even have language for it until recently. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise, but even this writer appears to acknowledge that gender identity is innate, regardless of how it manifests. S/he then goes on to conflate gender non-conformity with being transgender. This is the biggest failing in this article. Gender expression does not always map one-to-one with gender identity. You can be a gender non-conforming women whether you are transgender or not.

I think you somewhat misunderstand the premise and detail of the article, and that this is reflected in your own unconsciously ironic adoption of a range of terms the author argues are wholly socially-constructed & subjective to support a (mis-)interpretation that relies on these terms having commonly understood, concrete consensus meanings.

As such, I'd say that a more effective rebuttal from your perspective, acknowledging your values, may be, for example, a scientific, peer-reviewed source that offers a widely accepted definition of "gender identity" and "transgender" (as opposed to, for example, "gender dysphoria"). I'm genuinely interested if there's one out that that covers adolescent girls, cross-dressing men & the clincally dysphoric.

Even if you do, the author would point out - does infer - that science evolves over time, citing the medical consensus on how PTSD, for example, typically presents, and associated shifts in diagnostic criteria. It's interesting you read this as an omission: that s/he "ignores the fact science getting better and better at understanding mental health". I see this as implicit, but secondary to the wider argument that science & sociological phenomena intersect in complex ways.

His examples of past interpretations are evidence for, not evidence against gender identity. He doesn't call it a belief, at least, it's just in the normal range of experience.

I find this a little confused. You appear to be suggesting that the exact 20th/1st century phrase and concept of "gender identity" is supported by examples that, the author him/herself is arguing, instead suggest that "our" two-word phrase is, rather, a reductive contemporary categorisation of something much more complex & fluid, that manifests in a wide variety of ways across time and space. I find this an open-minded acknowledgement of the breadth of human experience.

He then argues that transgender people don't exist - which absolutely does not follow from what he said before.

In the light of what I say above, this is a surprising reading as you, again, assume and impose current terminology, with all its potential limitations, on human history and world geography. I suspect that the author may argue that there's a certain arrogance to metaphorically sticking this somewhat simplistic label on to all peoples, in all places. I'd argue myself that it dissolves important distinctions into a limited westernised conceptualisation of something far more complex. From this perspective, I may even tentatively suggest that your own alignment of the fa’afafine with "gender identity" could, itself, be seen as something of a culturally colonialist imposition.

...

Certainly, it's very interesting.

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 19:14

Catiette · 14/03/2024 18:47

@DadJoke, you're so right. As a rule, I never read or share unattributed reflective articles on the basis that they're not peer-reviewed science, and therefore, regrettably, invalid. I hadn't realised this is what that was - I'm sorry for the error. It'll reassure you to know that I actually disavow the social sciences entirely (and am honestly pretty cynical about any attempt by an layperson to synthesise a range of disciplines into an intelligently reasoned argument - especially when there's the possibility this may stimulate independent critical thought). I typically prefer to lay a few choice strawmen at my opponent's feet in a tenuously relevant rhetorical question or two. It's much safer all round.

Edited

That was a masterclass in sarcasm, thank you.

It doesn't have to be peer-reviewed, just not straightfowardly deny science.

A interesting well-written article from a social scientist which suggests that sexuality is not real might also stimulate critical thought, but the original iscussion was who exactly was denying the basic science around gender identity - gender critical people or most scientists, and how much weight you give to their views on evidence as a result?

If your delightful and well reasoned synthesis includes as a foundation or conclusion that "trans is not real" it's just an exercise in spurious reasoning.

Moglet4 · 14/03/2024 19:20

HydraDominatus · 14/03/2024 13:55

@DadJoke - also you have quite clearly cherry picked examples, accidentally highlighting the exact behaviour I am talking about. Confirmation bias.

I do wonder if individuals like yourself are wilfully ignorant (won't look), self deceiving (know but practice double think) or just don;t have the faculties for self analysis.

Which is it?

The same could be said for you. There are some serious issues with the Cass report but let’s just ignore those and cite it as the only ‘balanced’ source of information. There needs to be a range of expert opinions taken into consideration and reports which ultimately support either side need to be treated critically.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2024 19:22

Is Dadjoke telling us all about science again like the time he told us about Moobjuice being scientifically safe, tested and as good quality as breast, sorry, human milk?

Good stuff.

  • Gets popcorn +
Catiette · 14/03/2024 19:23

@DadJoke I rarely indulge in sarcasm - the lowest form of wit, and I prefer respectful debate - but the "genius" aside and your kind assumption that I'm sensible enough to rely on scientific consensus were irresistible, so I responded in kind. 😁

I did, however, appreciate your reading the article - meaningful engagement can be rare - so responded in kind there, too: further rebuttals welcome, though I may not be around to reply for a while (if I can just galvanise myself to focus on what I'm currently procrastinating on doing!)

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2024 19:23

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 19:14

That was a masterclass in sarcasm, thank you.

It doesn't have to be peer-reviewed, just not straightfowardly deny science.

A interesting well-written article from a social scientist which suggests that sexuality is not real might also stimulate critical thought, but the original iscussion was who exactly was denying the basic science around gender identity - gender critical people or most scientists, and how much weight you give to their views on evidence as a result?

If your delightful and well reasoned synthesis includes as a foundation or conclusion that "trans is not real" it's just an exercise in spurious reasoning.

Says Moobjuice supporting man.

Yep.

Crackin'

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/03/2024 19:34

That was a masterclass in sarcasm, thank you.

Yes, it was great!

BackToLurk · 14/03/2024 19:36

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 15:59

And yet there are definitions of it on the website of pretty much every single medical and psychological body. There are multiple theories about how sexuality is recognised, formed and expressed, but no one sensible disputes it. Of course it's contested. The existence of it is not disputed, except by gender critical people.

You understand, presumably, that the existence of a definition of a concept isn’t evidence of the existence or universal acceptance of that concept? I believe the APA also gives a definition of a soul.

BackToLurk · 14/03/2024 19:39

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 19:14

That was a masterclass in sarcasm, thank you.

It doesn't have to be peer-reviewed, just not straightfowardly deny science.

A interesting well-written article from a social scientist which suggests that sexuality is not real might also stimulate critical thought, but the original iscussion was who exactly was denying the basic science around gender identity - gender critical people or most scientists, and how much weight you give to their views on evidence as a result?

If your delightful and well reasoned synthesis includes as a foundation or conclusion that "trans is not real" it's just an exercise in spurious reasoning.

The definitions you’re so keen on. What type of scientists do they come from? Who is performing this ‘basic science’?

Cauliflowery · 14/03/2024 19:41

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 14:46

Secondly, leaving aside chancers and abusive opportunists, show me a trans person whose transition isn't rooted in sexism and homophobia, sometimes abuse?

@Cauliflowery this is exactly why you can't accept the science. Instead of accepting the reality of gender identity, you've made up reasons why most people transition, without evidence and in a way that promulgates transphobic myths.

The vast majority of people transition because their gender identity does not match their sex assigned at birth. The fact you don't believe this, when every single major scientific, medical and psychological body in the world does, means the onus is on you to demonstrate the science is wrong.
^^

Oh gosh, I certainly didn't make those reasons up! I read them in the many interviews with adult trans people published in pro trans ideology media.

It is interesting that this information is so often supplied when, as you are hinting at, it does kind of work against the "gender ID not matching sex" narrative. I can only surmise that it's a story that makes sense to the individual, and that's understandable. It is very very hard to confront past trauma.

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 19:41

@Catiette I will get back to you on your main answer I hope, tomorrow- again - I appreciate the nuance of your post, your patience, and you willingness to engage.

HydraDominatus · 14/03/2024 19:42

@DadJoke 6th fail a in a row, don’t be a coward. Own your opinions.

Come on? yes or no?

"would you accept rigorous research that showed a finding that does not align with transgender or transgender ally beliefs?"

OP posts:
OldCrone · 14/03/2024 19:45

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 19:14

That was a masterclass in sarcasm, thank you.

It doesn't have to be peer-reviewed, just not straightfowardly deny science.

A interesting well-written article from a social scientist which suggests that sexuality is not real might also stimulate critical thought, but the original iscussion was who exactly was denying the basic science around gender identity - gender critical people or most scientists, and how much weight you give to their views on evidence as a result?

If your delightful and well reasoned synthesis includes as a foundation or conclusion that "trans is not real" it's just an exercise in spurious reasoning.

gender critical people or most scientists

You seem to be assuming that these are two mutually exclusive categories. Why is this?

OldCrone · 14/03/2024 19:47

denying the basic science around gender identity

What is the basic science around gender identity @DadJoke ? Can you post some links?

Catiette · 14/03/2024 19:49

Ta, @DadJoke.

PS. Just realised my "rarely indulge in sarcasm" post (ugh, cringe) sounds insufferably smug. Love reading FWR for the arguments first - but then, hot on their heels, the amazing general knowledge & fab (sarcastic!) witty humour! Sometimes, it honestly feels like the only way through this shit. Keep it coming please, people - you do it so much better than I would if I tried.