Does the Transgender community have a problem with well evidenced science? Does the community only ever accept favourable reports, AKA confirmation bias, or is it something deeper?

[HydraDominatus]

Every piece of science or news thats not entirely supportive is buried under accusations of transphobia or bias

Why is this a political debate rather than a mental and physical health issue?

Cancer care isn't bias and politicised, trans health care shouldn't be either. Surely it's all about properly designed and researched programmes, with the outcome not predetermined, that we should be entirely standing behind?

Would the community ever stand behind rigorous, transparent, and ethically conducted research into transgender health care that did not align with its previous, deeply held views? If not, isn't that a problem?

tl;dr Is the Transgender community bias to it's own detriment?

(inspired by recent UK changes which do seem to be well researched, evidenced and guided by true support for people with genuine issues, it just does not line up with existing trans community narrative)

Brilliant post @OldCrone

I don't know if anyone has already posted this, but I found it a really useful way of understanding how the medical/ psychology worlds came to be in the perilous state they are currently in. I had never before understood quite how radical social justice theories had evolved into a kind of fascism in mental health, medical and academic circles. Having watched it, I have a clearer idea. Recommended.

So you think women deserve sympathy and kindness from trans people? Why sympathy?

So 3k has now become 2k…. Gosh this is like Read declaring 216 (iirc) errors without listing them or indeed, checking them. I found that 1 error was that Read did not understand the concept that they were ‘refuting’, and 2 linked peices of evidence did not say what Read wanted and did not support Read’s claims. So… that figure of Read’s was false and yet, extreme activists are declaring that 216 as well investigated and must be correct.

Seems that extreme trans activists (only some are even trans themselves) have a habit of making false grand claims and having to walk them back. Because their claims were not supported by well chosen evidence in the first place or because they outsource their own critical thinking to those who are also incapable and driven to prove ideological thinking and not material reality.

It is always a good demonstration though. Very useful.

The difference is that most gender critical people think that gender identity is a belief. Not a single person has provided any peer-reviewed evidence that this is true.

Please provide peer-reviewed evidence that God does not exist.

“Are gender critical people more like to believe and support research which confirms their beliefs? Of course.”

For years, under various different identities, I and others asked trans supporters posting on here to give me their evidence to refute GC scepticism. I was hoping that someone would come up with the material and the rationale that would enable me to agree with them and get on the Gender Ideology bus rather than have to fight it. I'm lazy, I have a life, I was an age where I wanted to stop struggling and enjoy what time I have left.

First of all we had the No Debate problem, then all that was ever offered were half-arsed articles that had been written by true believers referencing other true believers. On Woman's Hour (and for all we know every other media show) no trans advocate would agree to speak if they were put up against someone with GC views. We sat and listened carefully to rambling and incoherent diatribes. I mean, do you remember Freda and Peter on this?

We offered you the opportunity to persuade us so many times and the TRAs just showed us who they really are. Eventually the truth dawned — that there was no substance to any of this.

@GenderBlender
I know this was a few pages ago and it's not the point of the thread but I want to ask you about this "The other innate senses you mention of sexuality and proprioception can both be observed and/or measured. Its almost like gender doesn't exist in any real sense."
How can sexuality be observed and/or measured? You can observe a person's behaviour but the only way you know what category of sexuality they belong to is to ask them, and generally you believe what they say. There is no scientific test for this any more than there is for gender identity.

I would tend to feel that it must be very real to them, even if we don’t understand why?

We mostly do understand why. It's just that there are several different reasons
and not one single reason that fits everyone, not even for the most profound and long lasting dysphorias. Trouble is, a lot of people don't like to recognise or acknowledge some of those different reasons. They prefer to believe it's all a mystery even when it isn't. "Innate" is a good word to make it seem mysterious.

And people do like to ignore the obvious. Such as, if loads of teenage girls
are talking to each other about unusual gender identities or even transition then some of them are going to want to try them out and some of those will successfully convince themselves and each other that they desperately need to.

that doesn't mean that there aren't those who do genuinely have body dysphoria and feel out of place in their body...

To take out the double negative - this is saying "there are those who have genuinelyhave body dysphoria and feel out of place in their body" Well maybe, but it is a huge leap from there to decide that any or all of these people would be happier or more comfortable or more mentally stable after taking hormones or having their genitals or bodies or voices remodelled so as to better resemble the opposite sex.

Because we don't actually know that. The evidence so far says that it often doesn't help much, even with adults, even with all sorts of medical and psychological gatekeeping. And treating body dysphoria medically with drugs or surgery has massive downsides which include a high risk of serious damage to vital bodily functions like waste elimination and a strong possibility that no amount of medical intervention will resolve the dysphoria (or any other associated mental health problems).

So anyone who thinks that transition is what "kindness and compassion" requires, needs to think again.

@Saltpepperpaprika
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penile_plethysmography
Sexual arousal measurement (male)
I believe some bright spark invented a way to test females too

@DadJoke the fact that all mainstream scientists use this term

Most mainstream scientists don’t even work in the area of biology or social science or anything related even distantly to the concept of “gender identity”. You also seem somewhat naïve about the extent to which scientists behave and think logically. Scientists work on the basis of the scientific method, but they are vulnerable to bias from their cultural backgrounds and assumptions, like anyone else. So it is valuable to question what they mean when they use terms; if they are not using clear and defensible definitions, what they say is vague and unreliable. Many aspects of language, and therefore of most communication of complex concepts, are debatable.

We have reached a point where terms, such as sex, which were clear within living memory are no longer clear in law, let alone in society! This means that it is essential to define these terms in order to have a meaningful conversation. I have attempted to do this in a conversation with a trans ally (in an attempt to find out what is common ground and what isn’t), who has taken offence and refuses to provide definitions in return. My strong suspicion is that they have no coherent definitions.

Can that test determine your sexuality? Sounds like it's used to find out whether sex offenders are aroused by children or not.

Has been used for wider research into sexuality I believe - but no I don't have the papers to hand!

Being sexually aroused by one sex category or both is a material reality. You either are or you are not. The 'diagnosis tool', is arousal. It is certainly not hard to understand this and requires no philosophical belief. You either have it or not.

People who try to leverage sexual orientation as being equivalent to 'gender identity' are not really using a relevant comparator. Gender identity cannot be defined to be 'diagnosed at this time.

There's more to sexuality than being sexually aroused by one sex category or both...not every aspect of sexuality is about sex or arousal per se and people don't always define their sexuality exclusively by this. Straight women who are aroused by lesbian porn for example. It's not as simple as you say and even if it was, you do have to take people's word about what they're aroused by! Unless you're using one of those pedo detection devices linked above.

Most scientists use the term to mean an innate sense. They research its causes. They don't question its existence, any more than you would question the existence of sexuality at this stage in history.

It is a shame then that 'most scientists' must be wrong ;)

I keep posting the OED definition of gender:

The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather…

as expresses by social or cultural distinctions and differences - i.e. an external observation and categorisation...

If it is externally defined - then it can not be innate as you can not be born with an innate knowledge of any culture / social expression - that can only be learned by exposure to that culture or society...

It is scientifically impossible for gender to be innate...

And yet, I spoke about sexual orientation and not ‘sexuality’.

And people can be sexually aroused by both sexes. If lesbians are fantasizing about having sex with male people, then sure they can describe themselves one way because that is their ‘identity’. Is that identity based on material reality OR on a philosophical belief? And I mean not using watching people having sex in porn to stimulate arousal. I am talking about actively fantasizing about having sex as themselves with a male person when they have described themselves as homosexual and not bisexual.

One would hope that they are not having sex with people of the sex when they are not sexually attracted too to simply comply with their philosophical belief.

The point is that sexual orientation is not comparative to ‘gender identity’. And laws and policies that protect women and girls are requiring sexual orientation to be proven because sexual orientation isn’t in conflict with the protections for women and girls.

I'm missing the point about the discussion about the existence of a "gender identity". It's clearly something that, at the moment, cannot be measured. What I find more interesting is that, when a systematic review of the evidence is conducted by reputable organisations like NICE, the conclusion is that there is very low quality evidence that puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones have an impact on mental health, both in children and adults. (Unfortunately, the link to the NICE doesn't provide the study anymore - I hope I can find it, with a bit of time, because I've read it at the time).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56601386
The way a systematic review works is: all studies are collected from the literature. All studies are scored: a study with few patients, shorter follow-up, not very reputable scales to measure e.g. depression, anxiety etc. will be considered low score. Another important parameter is how many patients are lost to follow up. Consistently, these meta-analyses (commissioned by Cass, Finland, and others) have concluded that there is poor evidence that these treatments are effective. I can and will change my mind once there will be a number of good studies demonstrating that patients really benefit from these treatments. Personally, I'm open to the idea that, among all the people with gender dysphoria, there is a group that will benefit from this treatments. We're very far away from having good diagnostic criteria, and the ideology push is making research in this field even more difficult.

I don't know if "philosophical belief" comes into sexual orientation at all. But anyway. If a woman who says she's a lesbian is actually sexually aroused by men also but identifies as a lesbian, how would you know whether or not she's "really" a lesbian? You don't know what other people are aroused by do you. So forget the gender identity angle/comparison because I don't really care about that. I'm just contesting the idea that sexuality can be observed/measured.

Also "One would hope that they are not having sex with people of the sex when they are not sexually attracted too to simply comply with their philosophical belief." Why do you care if they do this?

What does this have to do with gender identity?

... or do believe the pope?

... is a comparison a 10 year old would throw

I just reread your post @Saltpepperpaprika and I see that you're not interested in discussing gender identity.

What people normally do if they want to discuss something completely different from the subject of a thread, and aren't interested in the subject of the thread, is to start their own thread. You could do that.

I can if you want! Here goes: there is no test to determine a person's sexual orientation. There are related behaviours but ultimately you have to trust what a person says about their internal feelings. You could say the same about gender identity. So they're comparable.

Gender identity and its definition and the impact of gender identity is what this thread is about. That you 'don't really care about that' does not change the material reality of what this thread is about.

I echo others, if you wish to discuss sexual orientation and whether it is based on material reality of philosophical belief, start your own thread and fill your boots.

The point of my post remains (with a correction as it missed the 'not' previously) :

Laws and policies that protect women and girls are not requiring sexual orientation to be proven because sexual orientation isn’t in conflict with the protections for women and girls.

Hence my point about it being a weak comparator.

So gender identity is just an 'internal feeling'. What does that tell us about that person exactly?