Interview with Dr David Bell on puberty blockers

[ariel333]

Important interviews with Hannah Barnes and Dr David Bell on PM Radio 4 12/03 David Bell from 10:58 on:
'Puberty blockade was being given in the context of a service that was providing the wrong treatment. It's not just that they were being given puberty blockers, it was that for reasons that we understand to some extent, that is the inappropriate penetration of a kind of ideology that seemed to overwhelm ordinary clinical practice, that children and young people with multiple clinical problems - that is depression, histories of trauma, profound family disturbances, 35% autism, many just lost and alone - all these problems were presenting as problems of gender. And then that overshadowed all the other problems that went unaddressed and there was the rather crazy idea that if we transed these children, all the other problems would go away. These children suffered in two ways - one that they got the wrong treatment which has considerable risks and two other problems which they had were not being addressed.'

I'd like someone to ask him that as well.

If you want daffodils, you have to plant bulbs.

Until we dismiss the idea that extreme and unnecessary surgeries on healthy bodies can, in some cases, be a rational response to mental health issues, gender non conformity and/or trauma, then of course we're going to have people thinking there are transsexual children.

Until we dismiss the idea that extreme and unnecessary surgeries on healthy bodies can, in some cases, be a rational response to mental health issues, gender non conformity and/or trauma, then of course we're going to have people thinking there are transsexual children.

I don't see how that follows. Surely the idea that extreme medical treatment and surgery was needed for these children followed the idea that children were transsexual/born in the wrong body.

Rant incoming as I have been stewing overnight.

Dear Evan Davis
You said there has been an absolute explosion in the number of teenagers, particularly girls attending gender clinics. Yes. Absolutely. You are 100% right.
The number is terrifyingly high.

And there are large numbers of people from their school teachers to their friends, and their GSA clubs and their online contacts on Pokemon discord servers, from the 'be kiiiind' do-gooders to the creepy random men on the Internet grooming them and trying to 'crack their eggs' all cheering them on.

Plus NHS doctors who have spent under an hour with them setting them on a path to potential medicalisation and barristers with a screamingly obvious vested interest misrepresenting the law and then add in Stonewall-captured organisations rewriting policies (so safeguarding and the social contract is broken) and you have a perfect storm. Next thank media and the BBC for shoehorning drag and the TQ in at every opportunity (but ignoring the scandals of WPATH - out go age limits and in comes Eunuch gender - way to go!) and the Guardian for cheerleading and the opposition saying that women have penises - yey, look at them all chipping in their pennyworth and feeling so virtuous and right side of history-ish!

And even here in this little corner of the Internet, if we talk about struggles with our girls or boys caught up in this gender madness, someone is sure to come along and censoriously correct us. When we talk about our boys they will say 'maybe you should just believe your daughter and accept her for who she truly is'. Ugh.

So I was supposed to think that my neurodiverse teenage boy, who I had loved and looked after and changed countless nappies for, who had suddenly adopted a fake high voice and a set of 'girly' mannerisms and had bought some black eyeliner and some girl knickers and was feverishly plucking his body hair and whose mental health had fallen off a cliff was now, magically, some sort of girl otherwise I was a bigot/he would kill himself? Riiiight.

Even Mumsnet makes us pussyfoot around and contort our language, what with not being able to use male pronouns for men with special identities and our Malaga airports and our c word and g word and don't mention the ultimate goal of the pressure on the age of consent unless you want to be deleted and that's 'not in the spirit' when we tell the truth.

So yes, Evan. They are girls.

I don't want anyone to come after you for saying so. After all they came after Justin Webb who just clarified that transwomen were male. But if they did, then I would say, that feeling you'd have, that mutinous feeling that underneath it all you know it's the truth and you shouldn't be punished for not contorting your language into transboy and demi boi and non binary when there are really no such things - that is nothing compared to the sick feeling I have had every day for the last few years trying not to let my son steer himself into the rocks.

They are girls. And they are boys.

And we are failing them.

Perhaps I'm missing your point or you are missing mine, as I'm not sure how we're in disagreement. My point being that the narrative, I keep hearing, is that for some adults, having these "gender affirming" surgeries is the rational option. But it's no more rational to have unnecessary surgery to emulate the opposite sex than it is rational to have your lip split and your face tattooed to look like a big cat. You may really want to be the other thing but you can't be it.

Whilst we claim it's a rational medical option for some adults to 'transition' (we can't change sex) then it follows that there must be a cohort of young children who would benefit from early interventions because they will grow up and do it anyway - hence the logic of some commentators when they ask "but what about the real trans kids?" I don't believe there's any such thing. Just manhandled (pun intended) gender non-comformity.

I don't believe its a good idea to treat any mental condition, however distressing, with dangerous body modifications regardless of age.

Whilst we claim it's a rational medical option for some adults to 'transition' (we can't change sex) then it follows that there must be a cohort of young children who would benefit from early interventions because they will grow up and do it anyway - hence the logic of some commentators when they ask "but what about the real trans kids?" I don't believe there's any such thing. Just manhandled (pun intended) gender non-comformity.

I see what you mean now, but it only follows if you also believe that people can literally be born in the wrong body. If you think that transsexualism is due to a mental health condition (gender dysphoria) or, in some cases, due to a fetish, then this doesn't follow at all.

That's the rub. What is transgender?

We all know that part of it is a fetish. Even most of the general public know that. Cross dressing is a well-known phenomenon. Although I'm sure the general public probably don't grasp quite how much of it is that.

So what's the rest?

Evan Davis's 'tru trans kids' have to have a reason.

We know there is no such thing as being born in the wrong body. There is no science that underpins that. And neither does the evidence. Almost all children will cite gender stereotyping as a reason to transition.

So gender dysphoria is a symptom of what?

Its Not being born in the wrong body. It's being uncomfortable with gender stereotyping. And homophobia is all part of gender stereotyping.

And then you have past sexual trauma and wanting to escape your body.

All quite understandable reasons to develop gender dysphoria. None of which should be affirmed by cutting your body up.

David Bell gave Evan Davis the answers to the questions he didn't have time to ask.

There IS no such thing as a trans kid.

And the best way to explain it to Evan Davis or the general public is, as a pp pointed out, to ask him what he means by true trans kids.

Make him say it.

I want everyone to be asked why they think the person in question has gender dysphoria.

Because gender dysphoria is being used as shorthand for 'trans kid'.

It's a cover-up.

Agree @OldCrone . So the "What about true trans children?" people must believe in a gendered soul. Or else they are homophobic (unconsciously or otherwise). Or think mental health issues can be cured by going under the knife.

(I just don't think anyone, who has spent more than five minutes pondering this issue, really believes that last one).

Totally agree @Datun

Rant away @ANewCreation 💐

I love the bit when Bell challenges ED for referring to 'trans kids' and then for using trans at all, saying that they are people expressing gender distress.

Such an important point and so rarely made. 'Trans' is a term made up by gender ideologues, its a term to describe their ideology. We should not be using it if we reject their ideology.

I agree it was so important to hear this. It reflects how I feel too.

Transactivists have campaigned relentlessly to disseminate the idea of being born in the wrong body. All aided and abetted by entertaining movies like Freaky Friday. And one's own imagination, of course.

But when you actually make people say it, it sounds daft. It just does.

Especially if you point out no science underpins that, and actually the evidence points to gender stereotyping.

It makes people sound like flat Earthers and conspiracy theorists.

I doubt that someone like Evan Davis would allow himself to get to that point.

But I'd sure like to give it a go.

I love the bit when Bell challenges ED for referring to 'trans kids' and then for using trans at all, saying that they are people expressing gender distress.

Yes. It removes the cover-up.

Because if you think a child is suffering from gender distress why would you affirm it by cutting up their body?

You immediately see the analogy with prescribing a gastric band to an anorexic.

I know one never stops being shocked by this fucking shit show of an ideology.

But where did we end up calling cutting up gender distressed children's bodies 'gender affirming treatment'.

It’s insanity

I want people held up as complicit in the next stage

Transactivists have campaigned relentlessly to disseminate the idea of being born in the wrong body. All aided and abetted by entertaining movies like Freaky Friday. And one's own imagination, of course.

But when you actually make people say it, it sounds daft. It just does.

Especially if you point out no science underpins that, and actually the evidence points to gender stereotyping.

They used to talk about 'born in the wrong body', until they were asked to explain how this works, because it requires a belief in a gendered soul. Then they said that they never said people were born in the wrong body, it was just how some people chose to describe how they felt.

They used to go on about how they knew they were trans because of stereotype after stereotype, until it was pointed out how offensive it was to suggest that everyone else was a walking stereotype. Then they said that 'being trans' had nothing to do with stereotypes.

Having also insisted that 'being trans' isn't a mental illness, and gender dysphoria isn't a necessary part of 'being trans', they are left with nothing. Hence RMW and others going on about 'essences'. Which makes them all sound insane.

Thank you @ANewCreation for this

It's stories like this that reinforce how right we are to never give up until children can grow up in safety. Thank you.

Abso-bloody-lutely.

I find it incredibly frustrating that the right questions never appear to get asked. I know transactactivists wriggle out of any potential accountability, but nonetheless.

If it's not this, that, or the other, then what the fuck is it?

You're left with a fetish.

The proponents of which need 'trans children' to legitimise it, in order to publicly display it.