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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Bar set too low?

24 replies

LorlieS · 09/03/2024 22:39

I've always wondered this.
I'm (happily) remarried. I have two teenagers from my first marriage and one 3 yo from my second.
My first marriage I was only in my 20s and put up with way too much. A lot of it I guess from a low self-esteem.
Now I'm married to a man who sees me entirely as equal and knows that I simply wouldn't take any crap! You don't step up, you can jog on!!
So why do so many women in 2024 put up with rubbish partners and husbands when they shouldn't have any need to?

OP posts:
Redpencil99 · 09/03/2024 22:41

Societal expectations? Money?

LorlieS · 09/03/2024 22:43

@Redpencil99 I think for some women unfortunately money definitely plays a part.

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Gagagardener · 09/03/2024 23:00

Huge subject. Basically, girls grow up wanting love and romance; boys grow up not wanting to be tied down. The pill gave sexual freedom. It's too late at night for me to pick this apart.

LorlieS · 09/03/2024 23:09

@Gagagardener But I'm not talking about girls, I'm talking about fully grown women!

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PatatiPatatras · 09/03/2024 23:29

No one wants to feel like a failure at picking the right man...

Fortitudinal · 09/03/2024 23:32

But you’ve answered your own question. You put up with a shit relationship when your self esteem was low and you didn’t know any better.

LorlieS · 09/03/2024 23:32

@PatatiPatatras I failed SPECTACULARLY at picking the right man first time around and I'm not ashamed to admit it!
Good riddance!

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songaboutjam · 09/03/2024 23:34

Even in 2024 women are expected to put everyone else first. It's so deeply engrained in so many of us that we don't even realise it. And some of our people pleasing is likely an ancient survival instinct (appease the angry man so he doesn't hurt you, cooperate with everyone so you aren't cast out to fend for yourself, be nurturing because the men won't do it and someone has to).

But add on ideas we've been taught, like "if he pulls your hair it means he likes you", "accept apologies and don't hold grudges", "be the better person" and we end up giving men the benefit of the doubt so many times that we don't feel like we can suddenly kick up a fuss. Because "men aren't mind readers" (and apparently can't be trusted to have equal social skills).

LorlieS · 09/03/2024 23:35

@Fortitudinal I agree that low self-esteem is deinfiitely a reason. But definitely not the only one.
Do women still believe they need a man rather than want one, for example?
Are women too reliant on men?
I guess the list goes on...

OP posts:
songaboutjam · 09/03/2024 23:38

I'm a very independent person who loves being single, but I put up with a terrible relationship because it was a bunch of small issues that individually, felt too petty to bring up.

But I was also inexperienced at the time and I did ditch the guy after a few months. I think I was just too easily emotionally manipulated, because he was really upset the first time I tried to end things.

pronounsbundlebundle · 10/03/2024 00:07

There's quite a common issue, documented on the relationships board, where the man is a fairly equal partner until the woman gets pregnant / they have children. At which point it becomes a lot more difficult to leave for a whole host of reasons including the children themselves and money and sometimes ill health (acute or chronic).

Some women can't leave because they may well be homeless if they do. Support services are lacking.

Recently a homeless woman died on the streets near where I live. She left a physically abusive marriage but ended up homeless and eventually died really very young - 40s.

In theory, yes she was on a housing list but the reality was there isn't enough social housing, it didn't materialise, and she couldn't afford private rents (which are very difficult to afford on one salary around here - more than many take home salaries per month).

I think if you're younger, healthy with good job prospects and earning potential it's easier to leave. If not, it's a gamble and it really does depend on how bad the relationship is. If it's not actually physically or emotionally abusive, but the man assumes the woman should do most childcare / cleaning, then if you're going to be significantly materially worse off if you leave and risk losing your children (if you can't afford suitable accommodation for them) then yes, some women have to decide which is worse.

Lots of people in society have to choose between crappy options and don't get to live lives of fulfillment, joy and real choice these days

pronounsbundlebundle · 10/03/2024 00:10

And obviously it's easier to leave if you don't have children.

popebishop · 10/03/2024 10:20

Do women still believe they need a man rather than want one, for example?

If you have a partner (whatever sex you are) that you consider an equal, life is often far "easier" - sharing living costs, having someone who wants you to succeed, less loneliness etc, so I think it's more a case of single vs not single life.

Then obviously if you want kids you have a limited time frame to find and evaluate potential partners in this, and women have a far more limited timeframe.

That said, there are issues that only arise in couples - eg if your job needs you to be in a specific location, you can't always square that circle.

Also, growing up you will have loads of varying images of "this is what a relationship is like" - your own family, soaps, media commentary, dramas, MN - most of which won't be ideal - or often total BS. It all gets consolidated as we grow up and can be hard to step back from. What you "do" and "don't do" in a "good" relationship, tensions with other relationships to balance (friends, family, kids etc).

I'm amazed at the stuff I read on here at times "He only tells me to fuck off sometimes, does he love me?"

RethinkingLife · 10/03/2024 11:50

Lots of people in society have to choose between crappy options and don't get to live lives of fulfillment, joy and real choice these days

Agreed.

Socialisation of women makes many stay decades beyond when a relationship should have broken up.

Many women had upbringings that actively destroyed any chance of healthy self-esteem.

https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/news-and-features/latest-news/detail/2024/03/08/violence-and-abuse-are-driving-mental-illness-in-women-and-girls--psychiatrists-warn

Violence and abuse are driving mental illness in women and girls, psychiatrists warn

The three top issues driving poor mental illness in women and girls have been revealed in a groundbreaking new study.

https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/news-and-features/latest-news/detail/2024/03/08/violence-and-abuse-are-driving-mental-illness-in-women-and-girls--psychiatrists-warn

ZeldaFighter · 10/03/2024 15:22

My husband and I have been together nearly 2 decades and having children was the biggest strain on our relationship...and also the reason I couldn't leave. I couldn't sacrifice their comfort, safety, opportunities and relationship with their father because I was upset he didn't do more housework. The children are close together in age and I don't think I could have coped alone.

They're older now, the pressure has eased and our relationship has improved.

I'll also add that children increased my need for support at the same time it destroyed my career and financial independence. Another reason I stayed.

LorlieS · 10/03/2024 20:23

@ZeldaFighter So are you saying you put up with him doing nothing in way of housework? Isn't that a slippery slope?
Did you have your own job during those years or were you financially reliant on your husband?
At least your relationship has improved now I guess.

OP posts:
Circumferences · 10/03/2024 20:41

So why do so many women in 2024 put up with rubbish partners and husbands when they shouldn't have any need to?

I take it you don't have children.

Pluralism · 10/03/2024 20:53

LorlieS · 09/03/2024 22:39

I've always wondered this.
I'm (happily) remarried. I have two teenagers from my first marriage and one 3 yo from my second.
My first marriage I was only in my 20s and put up with way too much. A lot of it I guess from a low self-esteem.
Now I'm married to a man who sees me entirely as equal and knows that I simply wouldn't take any crap! You don't step up, you can jog on!!
So why do so many women in 2024 put up with rubbish partners and husbands when they shouldn't have any need to?

I think there's a mad evolutionary rush to find someone who looks he'd father healthy, good looking kids with you when you're in your twenties/thirties.
Once you have kids you start thinking "yes, our kids are cute but wtf was I thinking marrying someone so nasty and unpleasant?" And then post divorce you're probably not looking for anyone to "mate" with lol, so you can pick and choose and find someone with decency and integrity. Or at least that's the dream. That last bit hasn't happened for me yet.

LorlieS · 10/03/2024 21:45

@Circumferences I have three; two with my ex-husband. I left him when they were 3 and 6 as they absolutely deserved better.
There was one moment that reaffirmed that leaving was the right thing for them...
It was very early on after leaving and we were all at my parents' house. Things were understandly fragile and my dad simply hugged my mum in front of us.
My boys both asked "Mummy...why is Grandad hugging nanna?"
They'd never witnessed any physical contact between myself and their father; he was a very, very cold man.
So I don't accept that staying unhappily married is always the right thing for children. They know. It affects them.

OP posts:
theremustbecake · 11/03/2024 09:43

The relationship changes from honeymoon period to long term...

Also, depends on the kids - I was always encouraging mom to divorce, whereas man-child brother would have been devastated so she stuck it out😫

pronounsbundlebundle · 11/03/2024 10:37

I really think women should leave if the relationship is abusive.

But what about if it's not abusive it's just not equal? And who gets to decide what 'equal' is? It's quite possible two partners would have different views on that.

Long-term relationships do require some compromise and concession from both parties. If you don't have that, it won't last. And if you're waiting for a relationship where everything is your way all the time, then if you do end up in it, it's likely the other person will be the one doing all the compromising.

I don't think it's possible to generalise so massively. It sounds like OP's relationship was unhappy and so she made the decision to leave. Others make the decision to stay. Presumably they make that decision because, overall, it's not so terrible or the alternatives are demonstrably worse.

Yes, being in an unhappy relationship is bad for the kids, but marriage breakups and having to live at two homes and having separated parents who don't like each other is also difficult for children. Pretending one option is always best in all situations is just not realistic. Abusive relationships are different, but this does not seem to be what we're discussing here.

I think what would be helpful would be to try and educate boys that they should be doing equal amounts of housework and childcare and to try and get rid of the destructive stereotypes that lead some men into assuming that women should do the lion's share of housework and childcare even if working full time and that they enjoy it. And destroy the idea that women and girls are 'lesser' than males.

And also really put laws in place that protect women when they've had children. I was made redundant after my first child whilst on maternity leave, this is common, it's not easy to fight particularly if you've just had a baby, your health isn't good, and the company claims they're completely getting rid of your job. it's one of these areas where IN THEORY it's illegal to do this but in practice it's common. Many women fall back on their husband's salary if this happens, I did. Of course I did, what else was I going to do? It did mean my career was destroyed but that wasn't DH's decision. It wasn't his fault that shortly after redundancy he got offered an amazing job abroad on higher pay and we decided that - in our family's best interest (but not really mine) - we should accept. Life is a bit random at times, and because of systemic bias mothers are often on the losing end of these things.

Support services are also inadequate for single mothers and women leaving relationships with insufficient finances. Many women ending up homeless or sofa surfing. In terms of abusive relationships: the courts often enable ongoing abuse of children by fathers - and mandate the mothers to hand over their children to a man they know is abusive for long periods of time, who may continue to abuse and / or neglect the children and it's very difficult to change this. All this needs fixing so it's easier for women to leave.

@ZeldaFighter has described I think a very common trajectory for a lot of marriages. Children put a strain on marriages, unless you're very wealthy and can afford nannies. Of course they do. Expecting anything else is ridiculous and it sounds like Zelda's relationship has recovered from this period. So it wasn't a 'slippery slope' - it was a period where things were difficult, now things are better. If she'd left, she'd have never found that out.

I absolutely support every woman who wants to leave and better support for women in abusive relationships to leave. I also support women who want to stay and try and make their relationships better and more equal, even if the husband doesn't do enough housework or mental load or childcare.

It is good to have conversations about what equality looks like, but we also have to respect that not everyone will make the same decisions as we will and we can't possibly know the details of why.

PriOn1 · 11/03/2024 13:51

For me, the problems and inequality arrived with the first baby, but even then it was disguised as him being depressed and stressed about work. As I married and promised I would be with him in sickness, I did my best to care for him and the baby.

The dynamic of inequality and mild to moderate abuse built up gradually and though I was not entirely happy a lot of the time, there was never a single incident bad enough for me to say it was the last straw. I know I used to wish he had hit me or cheated, as that would have been definitive and straightforward. Easy with hindsight to see that he was abusing us, but it didn’t feel that clear cut at the time, and I spent a lot of years hoping I would find the right thing to say or do that would sort it out.

I also had read that children from marriages that stayed together did better so I stuck it out, thinking it was better for my children. It took a long time for me to think about that idea and realise that the reason children from marriages that stayed together did better was because, on average, those marriages were better and therefore more stable for the children. It wasn’t the sticking together that was the important point.

And a PP said that things improved again when the children left. There were strong signs in my marriage that the same thing would happen, but life caught up with us. He finally gave me that definitive last straw, when I was least expecting it and only a few years before the last child moved out.

Even now, I still have regrets about having left, even though I know it was the right thing to do. I was looking forward to a comfortable and relatively peaceful retirement with a husband who ended up being a reasonably good husband, even if he wasn’t a good father. Now I’m looking at working till I’m 67 with only a moderate pension, if I make it that far. I can easily imagine some women would have chosen not to make that leap into the unknown, especially when their children are largely grown up.

People on here often say to women “you could do so much better” but the reality is that we may not. Some people seem to jump optimistically, from one relationship to the next, somehow having faith that the next will be better. I guess my ex quite liked being in a relationship as he seems to be searching for the next one. I don’t have that faith or want to start again, even though I don’t much like living alone. I would never question why women stay in shit relationships: it’s because loneliness looks worse to them than what they have.

ZeldaFighter · 15/03/2024 16:03

Thanks for being so supportive guys. Sometimes I actually feel really bad because it all feels based on something other than pure love. Before kids, I never saw our relationship as based on finances or transactional - I stayed only because I wanted to.

I'll add one more thing- breastfeeding. I'm not going to track down the research but it showed that generally, partners of breastfeeding Mums were more likely to think that only the mother could deal with the child. Quite obviously, I thought, dads who could and did give bottle feeds saw themselves as more equal and capable in childcare.

As a pp said, that's how it started. I was on maternity leave, I was breastfeeding, he was working, I did 60% of housework- some I couldn't do as baby! Then, I stayed off work and got pregnant again. Now 2 babies for me, 37 hours work for him and 80% of housework for me. Add in 1 more and now its 95% of housework for me as I'm only back at work part-time.

He does lots of things that I don't and that I don't appreciate that keeps our house running. But the only pressure he ever seems to feel is from me, whereas I feel constantly under pressure. He also thinks he does loads and argues back.

I'm going to stop now, I'm feeling a bit fragile today and don't really want to go into this anymore.

LorlieS · 15/03/2024 22:25

@ZeldaFighter I exclusively breastfed my baby/toddler and I would not accept any husband holding the belief that only I could "deal' with the child (not that mine would).
A father is equally as much of a parent as a mother and I would expect the effort he puts into their upbringing to reflect that.

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