Grayson Perry and Kirsty Young speaking sense

[LunaNorth]

On the BBC no less!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001wqf2?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

The tension in the room is palpable, though.

Grayson.

Yes. His argument is that cross-dressers are the most sexist people there are, as they rely on gender stereotypes for their thrills.

He also describes trans ideology as reductive, and I agree with him. Well worth a listen.

I listened to it too. I mean I liked the fact he talked about male sexuality and was very clear about it being reductive (trans).

I really don't like people showing their kink in public though, it's effing grim.

I was pleased that Kirsty Young pulled him up on that, however gently.

Thanks. I enjoyed the conversation. I think Kirstie put so great questions to him

He doesn't bother so much any more, does he? Said 4 years ago it takes too long and it's less of a thrill.
His wife always gives reasonable advice in the Guardian.
Am listening to it now. He has a cracking laugh. Nice to hear Kirsty Young back on radio. I know she's been very poorly.
Grayson had a rough childhood. I can empathise with that. He found a way of dealing with it, using shame as an aphrodisiac. At least, he's honest about it. He also knows who he is.

'male sexuality is a pretty potent and fucked up force'

His laugh's a defensive mechanism. I don't think it's real at all. It's grating.

'male sexuality is a pretty potent and fucked up force'
He's not wrong there, though, is he?

Sounds like he's gloating about it

Do you think? I have two teenage boys and the male sexuality seems very different from the female

I've got halfway through and it is interesting - I hadn't realised how good Kirsty Young is as an interviewer. A really good note struck of probing, challenging, and empathetic.

She’s great isn’t she?

Clearly verging on the terven…

I do wonder if it's less of a thrill for him now as it's not anything unusual anymore. I presume a lot of the thrill was from the ability to shock and make people uncomfortable. And once you've got to a point where every Tom Dick and Harry are wearing the same stuff as you to the office on a Wednesday then the pleasure derived from it for him has diminished. Add in an aging man with lowering libido and he probably can't be arsed any more.

I saw his recent live show when it came to my town and while it was a bit mixed, he was very frank about this side of him, even making a joke about being AGP. He also clearly has no time for identity politics and poked fun at people saying they identify as something in place of having personalities and hobbies. I think he was a breath of fresh air for the fairly liberal audience.

I really enjoyed listening to this. I think he is a fascinating man. He sees the whole gender identity melarky very clearly, including his place in it. He is noones stooge. I also love his voice.

I’ve heard Perry say before that he used to get a big thrill from dressing up and enjoying people’s shocked reaction. But now he’s known for cross dressing, people expect it and it doesn’t give him that same thrill any more.

I liked Kirsty’s question about the ethics of involving non-consenting adults in his cos play - his answer about it being no different to a couple holding hands was underwhelming.

But otherwise, I liked his general outlook on life and his view on the reductive nature of all things trans.

Kirsty did push back on the handholding comment and definitely was not convinced

Yeah, the handholding analogy was disingenuous bollocks.

Fetishistic cross dressing is not like holding hands in public, Grayson. I think he's in denial about how unethical and gross it is to have used other people as unwilling audience for his sexual gratification.

Then again, his next comment was about how he thought that meant there was 'darkness in the old dog yet', iirc, I'll need to relisten. That 'darkness' referred to non consensual sex acts. Accompanied by another laugh. So perhaps he's just being coy.

Perry is charismatic, fascinating, skilled, entertaining.

That doesn't mean he's not also abusive.

Fetishistic cross dressing is not like holding hands in public, Grayson. I think he's in denial about how unethical and gross it is to have used other people as unwilling audience for his sexual gratification.

I wonder how much the black strap on at the children's cancer thing turned people's opinion of him? I know I look at that photo and feel the urge to throw things (in the general direction of his head). I imagine some people must have asked him what the fuck he thought he was playing at that day.

Its such bad optics!

This is a really good interview and very clear about his motivations and wiring.

The black strap-on turned me massively off him. Can we assume he was having a really badly-judged day, when he aimed to shock and went too fucking far?

I am very aware, when I examine how I feel about GP, that I'm biased, because I like him. I think he's sane, intelligent and as others have pointed out here, nobody's fool. He says loudly, clearly and repeatedly, he's a transvestite, he was turned on by shame (as a result of his neglected/abusive childhood) which I take to mean includes dressing in absurd, attention-grabbing ways, he is not a woman, he's a man, that claiming that feels are more important than biology is 'magical thinking' (he says that exact thing in this interview) ... And I like his art (I'm less keen on the Clare stuff which I find tedious, though I've always loved the fact that he gets art students to design the outfits!) and find it genuinely good and thought-provoking.

When I think about him, and wonder if I should be pandering to his obvious and blatant kink that he's very upfront about, I remember he's married to Philippa Perry. An eminently sensible, compassionate, sane woman who I trust. I don't think she'd be associated with him if he were a wrong'un. The Clare stuff always feels to me like a private joke, a private fetish which is very much part of the way he's wired (which is what he's always said) and therefore I find it a bit tedious (in the way of someone describing in great detail a dream they've had - nobody else is that interested!). It's a kink and I think should probably remain a private thing. Public kink is tacky at best (abusive of unwitting bystanders at worst).

Perry is very likeable. I like his work a lot and much of his thinking is useful, insightful and valuable.

I can also see that his motivation when wearing a strap on cock/codpiece to an event for a children's charity, as part of a fetish that includes humiliation and provoking a reaction from an unwilling audience, is not okay.

He does somewhat bitterly suggest at one point that we should 'try banning' men from wearing frocks, and notes that Kirsty is wearing trousers. Her instant comeback was that she doesn't class trousers as male clothing, and I think he was a bit stumped by that. His outfits are not just 'frocks', the frocks are a Maguffin. They are outfits calculated to provoke a response in the viewer and humiliation in the wearer.

Some of this is 'plain sight' - he's open that he's participating in abusive acts by public cross dressing, but seems to be uncomfortable with/unaccepting of the idea that we should have a moral response to that. He wants us to be shocked and surprised and uncomfortable; he doesn't want us to attempt to stop him.

I thought that we saw a flash of the anger in that exchange that may be underneath some of his hale and hearty performance cackling.

This isn't to cast someone as a 'wrong un', but I do think we need to be able to say that a man involving other people in non consensual sex acts is wrong and unacceptable.

he's open that he's participating in abusive acts by public cross dressing, but seems to be uncomfortable with/unaccepting of the idea that we should have a moral response to that. He wants us to be shocked and surprised and uncomfortable; he doesn't want us to attempt to stop him.

What I mean to say is, this is indicative of a controlling and coercive and yes abusive dynamic. He wants audience participation on his terms only.

And this isn't to say he's a 'wrong un', it's to say that he's a flawed human being with blind spots, like most of us.

Current societal standards mean that women are not actually allowed to respond to exhibitionism like this in a natural way, without fear.

So the Emperor here is taking advantage of that dynamic. It's unpleasant. Much as AGP men claim that they're interested in 'humiliation', they often simultaneously retain the upper hand in the power dynamic, and this has been exacerbated and underscored and armour plated by the recent moves to cast transvestites as 'most marginalised' and in need of protection, the poor things.

The power dynamic may indeed make them vulnerable when compared to other men. It doesn't make them vulnerable compared to women/children.

I read recently about misogyny among incels; I think some of htis is a masculine power struggle - but women are always at the bottom of the heap.

He might be intelligent, he might be good company, he might be a talented artist - but I wish he’d kept his creepy kink confined to the bedroom instead of unleashing it on unsuspecting and non-consenting members of the public. Perry lost my respect when I saw THAT picture of him at the children’s charity event.

A couple more photos for more clarity as to who this man is - dressed as a penis jester and as a little girl.