Hadley Freeman - Indulging killers’ trans delusions is dangerous

[SapphosRock]

I think I've done the share token right:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/indulging-killers-trans-delusions-is-dangerous-mrxfm5lfd

Well done Hadley for highlighting the madness in the Times, I bet the Guardian wouldn't have published it.

So, thanks to Hadley, we now know "Blake's" original name: Fangze Wang.

It's strange that none of the other reporters were able to find that out.

Exactly. It reinforces the notion that not using preferred pronouns is disrespectful.

I think her comparison between using pronouns and a preferred nickname is slightly flawed maybe? The nickname would be the equivalent of calling Fangze Scarlet, ie anyone is entitled to change their name (legally or informally) and expect people to use the new one, but that is not the same as expecting them to deny biological reality and use preferred pronouns.

I disagree, @Runskiyoga - using chosen, non-sex-based pronouns is an exceptional accomodation we can choose or not choose to indulge.

Everyone else in society is referred to by their sex based pronouns when referred to in the third person (if their sex is known).

If a trans or non-binary identifying person wants the society to alter the linguistic habits and traditions of centuries, individuals can decide to go along with that or to reject it, depending on their own values, understanding of gender or any other reason.

Sometimes referring to someone by their sex-based pronoun is essential to prevent harm to others, to prevent misunderstandings or obsfucation, or to retain factual information where that information matters.

When reporting on a crime, it matters. When addressing a wedding invitation, it probably doesn't.

I am happy to address my son's trans-identifying friends as they, because within my house while asking whether they will want tea or coffee it's irrelevant. If the friends wanted places on the girls' hockey team, I would say use He/Him about those male friends to make clear exactly what was being requested.

You might choose to see it as being nice to this person face to face by indulging their choice of pronouns - I don't call it 'respect' because respect is a mutual thing, and someone requiring me to perform pretense to supply them with the experience they want from me without bothering to see me as a person who may not believe or wish to do this? Is not respectful. I'm not a doormat, I'm not an enabler. It's personal choice, and I expect the respect to go both ways, which requires an acceptance that I'm an equal person in this interaction and I may not choose to do this.

However that is a wholly different matter to whether or not a man is recorded, in public statistics and figures as 'female' - ffs, that's just plain ridiculous, no male is female. And the vigorous pronoun virtue signalling in the press builds up confusion, distortion of reality, the false public images and sympathies that open doors to forcing male prisoners into female prisons to the detriment and harm of female prisoners, and false statistics further used by an aggressive political lobby to force the privilege of men over the basic human rights of females. Not to mention that the press is engaging in being the mouthpiece for a partisan, quite extreme belief system as if it is the one and only truth, and what all Good People Think. That's plain wrong. Particularly the public funded ones with duties towards impartiality.

So yes, I'm absolutely in agreement that in all documentation and press reports of criminals that sex is used in addition to any mention of their gender choices, with correct pronouns. There have to be limits to how far kindly missexing someone to meet their emotional needs can be pushed, and the limits are other people's rights.

In every other bit of speech the speaker chooses the words. Some words are open to interpretation and sometimes we define them (like calling Luton or Stansted London airports) or sometimes we have a choice. Like I could tell my husband about "Simon" "Mr Smith" or "DS's violin teacher" or if Simon Smith had upset me then "that wanker." It might not be kind of me but I am allowed the freedom of speech. To legislate against use of undesired pronouns would be very worrying.
Incidentally my child is spoken about with incorrect pronouns often when we meet new people. Men in particular seem to think he's a girl. I corrected someone recently and someone else started using "they" presumably thinking thus was less wrong than "she." This allows us the listeners to understand something about their perception of my son. My son has long hair which I think he thinks makes him look like a rock star, it makes other kids' parents and supply teachers think he is a girl! It didn't change who my son was for even a split second.

With a criminal, especially one that has committed particularly horrendous crimes, it gives a direct perspective to the matter to refer to their sex via pronouns otherwise the crimes are assigned to someone with the incorrect sex. We also have to acknowledge the victims thoughts on the matter especially when it is manifestly obvious what sex the perpetrator is.

the criminal in question is being held in a male prison and I doubt his fellow inmates will be particularly careful about pronoun use along with the guarding staff. Therefore I think the public is entitled to use the sex pronoun rather than gender.

Froodwithatowel · Today 15:43

This definitely bears repeating:

...I don't call it 'respect' because respect is a mutual thing, and someone requiring me to perform pretense to supply them with the experience they want from me without bothering to see me as a person who may not believe or wish to do this?

I draw a line between personal and public discourse. I'll say over and over again that I don't care what a journalist (or anyone else) calls anyone in a private conversation - it's not my business. I do however care that they report information factually and accurately because - and here I'm paraphrasing another poster from another thread - their prime job is not to respect the feelings of the individual concerned but to respect the truth and their readers.

This is why journalism is such a bloody hard job. It's not enough to be a good writer, I think you need to be curious, tenacious, resilient and you need to care about the truth more than any other agenda.

Anyway thanks for the link, I enjoyed the article regardless. It's important to have the pronouns debate and I'm sure it'll rumble on. And also that's quite an alumnae from the Tavistock.

This article doesn't make sense though, given her scolding of women a fortnight ago who complained about Janice Turner calling men who impose their fetish on women "she".

Tiffany Scott didn't get female pronouns from the media reports of his death, but he hadn't ever killed anyone. Blake did, but he had killed someone. Who gets the courtesy pronouns and which women are disrespectful for not using them?

Because it's starting to look like Hadley, Janice, Helen Lewis, et al use female pronouns for the men they are friends with even though those men are harming women. And yet they tell women off for putting the feelings of the women harmed first.

Inconsistent and incoherent.

They can't complain about the media calling Blake "she" when they were doing the exact same thing a fortnight ago.

I have seen this reported before in other articles along with all the aliases he went by. I think the issue was because of cultural naming differences other media outlets weren't sure if this was his male name or another alias. They could have made an effort to find out though.

I doubt very much that'll be the last of the Tavistock Alumni we hear about.

Imagine the twenty year reunion.

I can't recall another high-profile murder case where the name of the perp is not known (or not publicised).

Just did a quick google on "Fangze Wang".

Feb 23 : The Telegraph
"Blake previously went by the name Fangze Wang and later Alice Wang"

Feb 26 : First Sportz website
"Navratilova got involved in the case following BBC’s mistake that quickly went viral. Blake has claimed to be a woman having changed names to Fangze Wang and later Alice Wang."

Feb 27 : The Spectator
"For the record, Scarlet Blake was born a male in China, and went by the name Fangze Wang earlier in life."

All other news outlets - silence.

Trivia Alert : Google threw up that Wang created a company in 2016 called Alexandra Aerospace Limited, (nature of business (SIC)72190 - Other research and experimental development on natural sciences and engineering) which he dissolved in 2018. On Companies house, he's referred to as MR Fangze Wang. On a commercial site listing the company, he's referred to as MISS Fangze Wang. Left me wondering if there's another name preceding Fangze.

Many Chinese names can be used for either sex. Fangze might be one of them.

When I first read an article about Blake ,I thought that's unusual for a woman to do something so twisted...erm turns out it was a man.

Seconding that.

No-one has the human right to have a lie or delusion pandered to by another person, at the expense of that other person’s psychological equilibrium.

Pronouns. Bloody pronouns.

RecentlyI was thinking and noticed the iteration of correcting the thoughts in my headto express relationships, who people were etc. For example: using 'biological woman' instead of 'woman'. Using ‘they’ for someone one person, or woman to describe a man.

Thesewere private thoughts and from now on I will not respect pronouns. Why change my thoughts for other people? Why respect a 'belief' that has no basis in
reality and causes harm to others? Why prioritise the permanently offended when they will find something new to be offended by?

Barraker was right Pronouns are Rohypnol.

This is how insane the world is. None of tbis would be an issue and there would never be the need for such an article if everyone stopped pretending men can be women.

Thanks for sharing his. Hadn’t seen it.

Am I mad to hope that the horrible killing of a cat (rather than the murder) will wake up some sectors of the UK public to the dangerous insanity of assigning male crimes to women?

And I bet the male prisoners won't get punished the way the female prisoners do for misgendering the violent thugs who claim to be woman.

Coming to a prison near you soon.

And has anyone noticed that, whenever the Guardian has a news report on Tommy Robinson, it always refers to him as "Tommy Robinson, real name Stephen Yaxley-Lennon"?

Lots of people change their names as adults, yet I don't think the paper does that with anyone else. So why does Robinson always have his "real" name appended, but a vicious murderer is given the courtesy, not just of his preferred name, but his adopted sex and pronouns?

On the pronouns question, I just see that as a manners and respect issue. For example in my role I sometimes have to look at someone's DBS. I might see that they have a previous conviction. Obviously I never mention this in any way. But if the person was then suspected of a crime I might mention it to the police, and it would also be raised by the judge in sentencing.

So I do think there are situations where you might have previously respected someone's wishes and right to privacy that could change if they committed a crime in the interests of protecting society.

If Blake had been convicted of shoplifting there would be no need for society to know his biological sex, but because he has been convicted of an extremely rare and shocking crime, it's in the public interest to understand his background and record the crime correctly.