New Abigail Shrier book

[thevegetablesoup]

Abigail Shrier who published Irreversible Damage a few years ago has a new book out, called Bad Therapy. I've just started it.

May be of interest as although it is not about trans issues it touched upon the rise in poor teen mental
Health and our response to it. She is doing the podcast rounds atm and has done Rogan, Bari Weiss and Bridget Phetasy. I imagine she will do Triggernometry.

I find her to be a courageous voice on these issues although I don't agree either her on everything.

I'm reading it now and finding it very interesting. Some of the examples are very extreme, but is it because it's in America? Like kids having to learn about inclusion during maths class. Or being subjected to talk therapy whether they need it or not.

I'm a bit confused on her long chapters on trauma residing in the body though (or not as she says). From what I understand, she's saying on-going trauma from childhood doesn't exist, and people are resilient. I'm not sure why it can't be both?? That even resilient adults might well have some past trauma they might want to address? I'm also not sure how it's relevant because Gabor Mate's stuff is about adults tackling their own pasts (self-help guide), whereas this book is supposed to be about how best to raise kids. But I suppose people can interpret it all as an excuse to blame everything on someone else, which I don't think it was supposed to be interpreted as.

Anyhow, def good to read, I'm very much the gentle parent so I'd quite like to hear the another view. It's always good to understand all sides of a debate and decide from there.

'I'm not sure why it can't be both?? That even resilient adults might well have some past trauma they might want to address?"

Hard agree with this @theremustbecake - it's not either/or. I do believe some painful memories can become repressed via disassotian (an entirely valid adaptation) and that dis-ease can manifest in the body.

I do agree with her on the over medicalisation of childhood experience and the impact gentle parenting is having on building resilience more broadly. Her convo with Jordan Peterson is worth a listen. He has some very interesting observations about the rise of only-children/older parents and the pressure "to get it right"

I don't think she is saying that there is no such thing as trauma at all, but that it's not the most inevitable or maybe even most common response to bad events, much less the normal difficult things all people go through. The normal or usual outcome is that people get through these things and gain resilience. Because resilience comes from going through the difficult things.

We've moved to a belief system that sees even normal things as resulting in trauma, and this drives a lot of the parenting decisions people make.

I also just started reading her book and caught one of her video talks promoting it. A big takeaway for me has been that a lot of healthy young people are being pushed into therapy for normal feelings, like being anxious or frustrated, all typical for going through puberty or being scared of changes or simply feeling normal adolescent sadness. She's not against therapy, but she says that too many young people are not being parented. Rather, their parents abdicate their responsibility and send them to therapy they don't need from a therapist who knows so much less than the parent about this child. As a result the children are becoming harmed by bad therapy due to the risks of rumination and suggestions that end up pathologizing normal child and teen emotion and behavior. I didn't sense she is even blaming parents rather saying that our collective narrative that therapy is for everyone is actually causing harm because it's increasing the number of children who say they have poor mental health, primarily because therapy is suggesting it and repetitive therapy for healthy kids is planting seeds that they are damaged, which causes poorer outcomes.

And while she is not overtly feminist, I really appreciated her example of a young boy hitting his sister who is not told firmly no and is not disciplined. She suggests that this lack of establishing firm boundaries and rules as a child means he's more likely to grow up to hurt more people.

I think all the stuff about the body and trauma is a direct response to the book "The Body Keeps The Score" by a Dutch researcher that's been on the NYTimes bestseller list for years now. This book massively stretched the definition of "trauma" to what we see today, to basically any upsetting experience (see the final para of this excellent review: https://theconversation.com/the-body-keeps-the-score-how-a-bestselling-book-helps-us-understand-trauma-but-inflates-the-definition-of-it-184735)

The criticism of that book (from the head of psychology at Harvard Medical School Richard McNally, among others) has been excoriating - from Wikipedia:

In his 2005 Canadian Journal of Psychiatry article "Debunking Myths About Trauma and Memory", psychologist Richard McNally described the reasoning of Kolk's 1994 article "The Body Keeps the Score" as "mistaken", his theory as "plague[d]" by "[c]onceptual and empirical problems", and the therapeutic approach inspired by it as "arguably the most serious catastrophe to strike the mental health field since the lobotomy era". McNally's 2003 book Remembering Trauma gave a detailed critique (pp. 177-82) of Kolk's article, concluding Kolk's theory was one "in search of a phenomenon".

I found it so interesting and also found her podcast interviews very good. I particularly liked her emphasis on parents trying to trust their intuition on things. I can recall many situations with my DC where I have tried to implement 'gentle' parenting - probably as that is the current dominant discourse - when they actually really benefited from a 'firmer' stance.

From my own perspective - having had a fair amount of therapy for issues stemming from childhood - I really agree that constant rumination on our feelings is not particularly helpful. We can recognise them and accept them but there's really no other way but just to move on. I know Jordan Peterson is pretty controversial but I find his ideas on child psychology very interesting - it was interesting to hear this discussed on his podcast.

Having watched the interview with JP, it seems clear to me that what she is saying is something really important for those of us concerned with the effect of gender ideology on the medicalization of children.

She's essentially saying, GI is not the outlier that many of us have believed, it's just one element of current therapy culture, and very much in line with the dominant therapeutic practices. The outcomes are more spectacularly bad, but not fundamentally different in nature than what is happening to other kids.

I think this suggests that to oppose gender ideology being imposed on kids may require a wider approach.

This is a very thought provoking, nuanced substack article exploring this current debate on the 'Trauma Wars'. The writer interviews Peter Levine and Van der Kolk, as well as McNally I think.
I'm very interested (and conflicted) re this topic and it covers it really well I felt. Don't think it discusses Shrier's book- but might have been from before publication.

Excerpt:

A new awareness of trauma could have significant implications for our justice systems, education, relationships and beyond. At the same time, I do not want to live in a safety-first culture that tries to remove challenge in the name of preventing difficult feelings, and uses the psychology of trauma as an ostensibly evidence-based justification doing this. Instead, I yearn for our strength and resilience to be given their rightful place in our cultural understanding of ourselves alongside our wounding and vulnerability.

https://beiner.substack.com/p/the-truth-about-trauma-bessel-van

I heard her triggernometry interview and I think part of the problem is even she says teenagehood is a “ terrible “ time. No it’s not! It’s the best time of your life and I tell my teens that every day. no real responsibilities other than turn up at school , do your home work and have fun with your friends for the overwhelmingly vast majority of them certainly here in U.K.

we need to change the narrative from what a terrible time it is to be a teen to what a brilliant time it can be and stop all the doom saying.

I think it's very common to find the teen years hard. I certainly remember being completely consumed by worrying about whether or not I fitted in and wore the right things. I went to an all girls school where the politics of friendship could be toxic and that was before the days of social media so it must be awful now.

BUT I think the point she is making, that I would agree with, is that actually all of these experiences were things I learned from and I gained strength and resilience from them. It's normal to have worries and shit times as a teenager , but we don't need to pathologise that and diagnose it as anxiety and depression and treat them with therapy.

I have primary age kids but it shocks me how many people at work allow their teens to have days off because they’ve got their period, or they had a stressful test yesterday, or they’ve broken up with a boyfriend.

These are professional people who have worked hard to get where they are yet they seem to be scared of making their own children do the same.

I would argue, from Shrier's POV, she's suggesting not so much that hating being a teenager is the default or that teens should expect it to be a terrible time, rather that feeling intense anger, frustration, sadness, rollercoaster of emotions, down times, and drama, etc. as a teenager is very much within the realms of normal and that the cure is growing up. She's opposed to pathologizing typical teen feelings and emotions.

I’ve just started reading this book. I’ve been really surprised to hear that there is no evidence that therapy works! I had never considered this possibility as I remember reading the opposite - that all types of therapy are useful and that just talking and having someone to listen is helpful in itself. I’m actually shocked at myself that I have never considered that therapy just doesn’t work in the long term.

If this is true then parents need to know. There are so many people clambering for therapy through CAHMS but if it doesn’t work then we need other ideas. The demand is clearly unsustainable for any public health service anyway.

Thanks for sharing this article. I have been struggling with the trauma question for a while. I have gotten into the habit of asking patients with severe refractory somatic symptoms or extreme obesity - "would you consider you have had a hard life?" However, I frequently get some disclosure and I don't know whether this is helpful to the patient or not - I am not a psychotherapist and I worry that I am making things worse by painting a (possible, statistical) connection between their ongoing life difficulties and their symptoms. I can't change their experiences so am I disempowering them - you were broken by some external experience and that is why you're a mess? On the other hand, if it means people find some self-compassion, will it help them approach their healing with more understanding?

My conclusion so far is that it is as individual as the patient is - like for an autism/ADHD diagnosis in a functioning adult. Sometimes it is helpful, sometimes really not. I guess the skill is in judging who needs that self-compassion to move forward and for whom this might further externalise their locus of control.

BTW can recommend the Bari Weiss interview with Abigail Shrier. I have sent it to many!

I appreciate and relate to your thoughtful post
@FragileIsAsFragileDoes

Ramble warning- as this topic sets off so many conflicting thoughts...

The topic of trauma is so complex! Especially if we consider concepts like 'resilience factors' that can minimise the impacts for some compared to others, and 'secondary gains' that can keep people stuck in a disempowered place.

Probably, the issue being identified by Shrier and others challenging the trauma narrative, is the danger when growing awareness in an area can tip too much in the opposite direction. Especially in the era of 'identity'. (I haven't read the book yet though!)

I, personally, think it's been a good thing that the impacts of trauma have been recognised in recent years, but not so helpful if people then hold trauma as an identity.

As I think you are saying (and like the quote in my original post) , a balance between compassion AND fostering empowerment are key- and a cultural narrative that highlights that is most helpful I think.

I recall a quite famous US therapist was quite viciously attacked on social media a while ago for talking about trauma and recovery in these terms in her book (wish I could remember names for all my references!)

It struck me then, that there is a delicate line between feeling victimised and self- compassion. Maybe the difference between self-pity and self-compassion. On the one side (identifying as the victim), any message that you have some power and strength could be experienced as threatening, whereas self- compassion can be the stepping stone to feeling a sense of power and building resilience. In the same way that compassion for others- with its desire for the best for them- even if it entails painful truth- is more effective than sympathy/pity.
An effective therapist would foster self compassion rather than a sense of victimhood.

I think where there has been a strong victim narrative in our culture (and it seems in some therapy too), coupled with the huge growth in trauma awareness, in recent years; this has had an impact on people being able to cross this line.

Consequently, I suspect there is now an element of backlash ('All acknowledgement of trauma/need for therapy is bad').

Kind of an aside; This discussion also brings to mind a fascinating talk I heard years ago, about western NGOs going into non-western cultures with trauma crisis teams immediately after natural disasters and conflicts.
And how counterproductive it was, because the NGOs were working from notions of, and approaches to trauma that were so far removed from how those communities framed the events (not even necessarily as 'trauma") and managed the impacts themselves.

Cultural narratives are so powerful and formative- and so anything that recognises a narrative has become over-arching and examines it (even if that examination risks throwing babies out of the bathwater, or misses some points) is useful I think. Although, I'm always aware of how the tipping can go in both directions.

I guess I'll have to read the book!

Yes, I think this is it.

It's normal for the teenage brain to experience things differently than adults do. Emotional responses are very often heightened. I also believe that massive changes in the body can create a sense of an out of body experience.

I am a relatively "normal" adult, in many ways very ever-keeled. As a teen my emotions were extreme, I sometimes wanted to be violent, I had weird and disturbing thoughts about things like other people being able to hear my thoughts, I had some weird and unpleasant sexual responses. All of this stuff went away as I got into my early 20s.

Kids need to expect that all these crazy emotions and ideas are normal and will likely pass.

Sorry, but I think it is just awful to tell your teenagers that they must be having the time of their lives, just because you think they should be! It's so smug and dismissive.

I agree 100% that as society we are over pathologising normal, albeit painful, experiences, and that this is likely to be very unhelpful in the long term. But you can't sweepingly dismiss the reality that life for modern teenagers can be really bloody difficult.

My teen years were perfectly fine, a normal mix of highs and lows. But overall I was happy to leave them behind, and have gradually become happier and more comfortable in my own skin with every decade that passes. Many of my friends feel the same.

I was happy to leave my teens behind as well. I craved independence. I hated the confines of school and the family home even though I went to nice school and my family life was stable and supportive.

Todays teens don’t even want independence. They’re scared of the world. I think the teenage difficulties now are quite different.

It struck me then, that there is a delicate line between feeling victimised and self- compassion.

I agree. One thing Shrier talked about in an interview was there is a positive way we can help kids see nuances in language which helps them better clarify reality. Like, "I'm really frustrated with my grade because I worked hard and still didn't do as well as I wanted" vs "I'm so depressed. My teacher hates me."

And daily parenting should intervene to pull kids back into healthy reasoning rather than abdicating your responsibilities, taking a kid into therapy, and telling them something is deeply wrong with them.

I heard her triggernometry interview and I think part of the problem is even she says teenagehood is a “ terrible “ time. No it’s not! It’s the best time of your life and I tell my teens that every day. no real responsibilities other than turn up at school , do your home work and have fun with your friends for the overwhelmingly vast majority of them certainly here in U.K.

Have only read to this post, so sorry if I’ve missed others saying similar!

I had a shitty time of it as a teenager. I was autistic but not yet diagnosed, bullied throughout my teen years. I was repeatedly told that these were the best years of my life, and THANK FUCKING GOD they weren’t! Even with no end of responsibilities and work and bills, my life as an adult is infinitely better than it was as a teen!

My dd has mental issues, part of her recovery (still on track) was being pragmatically clear that for some people these years are shit - your brain is still developing, your body changes, hormones all over the place - and that things will (and most definitely are) improve as an adult. If my approach to dd was to dismiss how awful she felt, particularly knowing how I felt at the same age, and tell her that this is the best time of her life it would be spectacularly shit parenting, and probably would have served to increase her suicidal thoughts!

It’s far better to be honest with our teens. Yes it may feel shit, but it gets better, you settle down, you feel comfortable in your own skin.

The worst years of DD’s teen years were those when shook and CAMHS were “supporting” her.
In reality their shockingly bad interventions dragged her further into depression because their work made her dwell on how awful her perception of her life was, instead of some work to help her learn how to change her perception, or to help her stop the pointless dwelling on all that was wrong with her life!

This just came up on my feed, so adding it to this thread for those interested in the topic. It echoes some of the discussion points here:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/01/its-important-to-recognise-trauma-but-we-should-not-let-it-become-our-entire-identity

Thanks for sharing.

A very thought provoking book. I'm about halfway through. I'm glad this is being explored in this way.