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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

When did "sex" and "gender" stop being used interchangeably?

96 replies

WookeyHole · 26/02/2024 14:18

Prompted by another thread where the OP is getting feedback on using gender reveal rather than sex reveal of a baby...

Until perhaps 10 years ago, possibly more recently than that, I, and everyone I know, would have used the words sex and gender interchangeably.

Now I know they are seen to have different meanings, but doesn't the very use of the word gender by TRAs and the fact women have to use sex mean a concession by women?

Or is it that language evolves and it's been a necessary step to ensure clarity?

I just can't help thinking people on mn calling out other women for using gender is using the term in a way which is a trans construct.

Please don't flame me, I am not good on the nuances of this whole thing, and I am posting to learn.

OP posts:
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coureur · 26/02/2024 17:45

BackCats · 26/02/2024 15:33

Interesting the quote is feminine gender and not female gender or feminine sex. So it’s not quite interchangeably used there.

Feminine is being used as the adjectival form of female in this quote. I don’t think there’s anything more to it. Female as a descriptor for humans (and presumably divinities) was seen as somewhat impolite - as it still is in modern French.

Others have come up with plenty of evidence that gender as a synonym for sex is not a modern development.

Merrymouse · 26/02/2024 18:18

The route of gender is genus, so type, but sex has always related to sexual intercourse and makes and females.

I wonder when gender and genre stopped being interchangeable in English?

WookeyHole · 26/02/2024 18:25

Thank you all very much. Interesting and informative.

OP posts:
Merrymouse · 26/02/2024 18:30

coureur · 26/02/2024 17:45

Feminine is being used as the adjectival form of female in this quote. I don’t think there’s anything more to it. Female as a descriptor for humans (and presumably divinities) was seen as somewhat impolite - as it still is in modern French.

Others have come up with plenty of evidence that gender as a synonym for sex is not a modern development.

The French say ‘Équipe de France féminine de football’ where we would say Women’s football team, but I don’t think they are implying anything about what the English would call femininity.

I think the languages have just evolved in different ways.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 26/02/2024 18:44

Feminine is being used as the adjectival form of female in this quote.

Feminine isn't the adjectival form of the noun 'female'. 'Female' is a perfectly valid adjective in its own right (as well as being a noun).

Fallingirl · 26/02/2024 19:02

“I don’t think women fighting for a reversal of the changes in terminology is a concession. It’s just that, over time, it’s become apparent that this change was strategic and not simply an evolution.

The terms sex and women are used in laws. The push to using different terminology and changing the meanings of words is designed to muddy the waters. It’s easier to change language than it is to change laws and if language is unclear, it gives benefit to those who want the boundaries that restrict them gone.”

The muddying of waters has also happened because the bait and switch trick has worked, whereby “gender” now doesn’t so much mean the socialisation and social expectations applied to someone on the basis of their sex, but is assumed to mean “gender identity”.

Feminists going all the way back to Wollstonecraft and up through the second wave succeeded in making it very clear that women’s inferior position was a social and cultural creation, and not a natural effect of our inferior brains and bodies.

Gender was at that time very useful to signify the difference between that which is external to our minds, i.e culturally constructed, and that which is innate and internal, a matter of our sex.

Gender identity ideology has now shoved gender back into the inside of our minds as an internal property. According to them, women’s role in society, including gendered expectations about dress, behaviour, occupation etc, is an innate and internal property.

Not so very different to the ancient Greeks explanation for why women were not suited to speak in the public square but really only suited to doing the shitty work that no one wants to do. Our wandering wombs determined our place in the world. Now it’s our internal identification with our allocated gender shite that explains it.

The whole sex/gender/gender identity is a bait & switch con.
I actually found gender a very useful concept, used in the second wave sociocultural sense, but I think we will just have to let it go now. It is too mangled and abused. We should probably talk about ‘sex roles’ ‘sex stereotypes’ and ‘female/male socialisation’ where before we would have used gender, and obviously use ‘sex’ when that is what we mean.

RebelliousCow · 26/02/2024 19:11

Sex and gender were not used interchangeably. 'Gender' was only used in correspondence with grammatical formations such as those in Latin or French.

Apart from that I'd never heard the word 'gender' being used - ever......until the 1970s when it was used by feminists.

RebelliousCow · 26/02/2024 19:14

Flickersy · 26/02/2024 15:47

If you think they've never been interchangeable, someone needs to tell the experts at MW that some randoms on the internet say they're wrong:

"In the 15th century gender expanded from its use as a term for a grammatical subclass to join sex in referring to either of the two primary biological forms of a species, a meaning sex has had since the 14th century; phrases like "the male sex" and "the female gender" are both grounded in uses established for more than five centuries."

Certainly not in common parlance......

RebelliousCow · 26/02/2024 19:16

Flickersy · 26/02/2024 15:52

OED, Cambridge dictionary, and even Samuel Johnsons dictionary also clearly show sex and gender have had the same usage for many centuries.

That definition says : " Not in use"

RebelliousCow · 26/02/2024 19:21

Of course it was transsexual until not long ago - not transgender...and 'transsexual' is still how much of the public thinks of this particular phenomenon.This transitioner suggests that the shift happened in the 1980s.

"The term transsexual was defined as a medical one and was what appeared in all my early medical files when I was sent from doctor to doctor, hospital to hospital and into psychiatric units.

By the time I got to the point of surgery - always the end of the process and after several years of other therapy first back then - something had shifted. As you were asked to sign a waiver before they consented to do the surgery that you understood that it was not changing sex but reassigning gender.

I was told by the psychiatrist about to pass me onto the surgeon that this was a legal requirement because the law would not recognise any change of sex and he was sure never would as he had just gone to court to give evidence to help annul a transsexual's marriage to a man as illegal on those grounds.

So gender was introduced into the nomenclature not for any reason other than to give a separation from sex.

This is probably why transsexuals have always been realistic about this concept of changing sex. We had to get that before we passed that point. If we didn't then you were not taken further.

I would guess based on how many people today seem not to get this biological reality within the transgender community that it is not part of the treatment path nowadays.

After I was signed off by Charring Cross in the early 80s (they only did two or three years follow up after my final surgery) I was basically left alone and never really asked about the subject again, even by GPs, though, of course, I told them all every time I moved to a new area. I did not even see my notes until 2004 when my GP wanted to check them with me during the application for a GRC and I discovered that they wrongly claimed I had had breast enhancement. I had been offered it on the NHS in 1980 but had turned it down.

All the records still used the term transsexual. I never even heard the term transgender until all the stories started appearing on Digital Spy where I had posted regularly on media matters and the subject had suddenly become something everyone was talking about. But calling it transgender.

That's when I first started searching the net to find out what was going on, joined the only non fanatical forum I could find (Angels) and started catching up on what had been going on over the past decades whilst I was getting on with living.

Whenever I used the word transsexual I was reminded not to, just as I was told to use terms like Cis and Terf. I looked into what these meant as I had no idea and quickly decided they were needless or provocative so I was not going to follow that pattern. But transgender or trans for short seemed a harmless enough word and I thought, as transsexual emphasised the misconception of 'sex change' perhaps it was a sensible modification.

The reclamation independently seeming to happen now appears to be happening partly out of distancing to some degree, but also I think because it emphasises that in our case - whilst the biological reality is understood - it always was about changing as far as possible the sex characteristics of the body. And not about expressing a girly gender identity, or indeed any kind of lifestyle preference or interest in clothes or hobbies.

For some gender expression very much seems to be what it is about. I think for transsexuals it is about the body. Probably why there is very little interest in physical transition by those transgender and it is really more about expressing personality in a way they find more comfortable.

So without presuming different causes or origins as we are still guessing on those with any of us - I think there are two very different focal points of what we seem to be doing about it.

Reclaiming transsexual just seems to have occurred to a few people at the same time as a way to point that out"

PerspicaciaTick · 26/02/2024 19:21

When I studied sociology 30 years ago, sex and gender were different. Sex referred to biology and gender referred to social roles.
Then the terms were conflated, apparently out of some sort of misplaced prudery.
Now, at last, they are separating again. Hurrah!

Stormbornform · 26/02/2024 19:23

When they started to mean different things! They used to be interchangeable now the meaning of gender has changed from a slightly different word meaning sex to what identity a person feels they are.

borntobequiet · 26/02/2024 19:27

The phrase “used to” seems to have different meanings depending on the age of the user.

popebishop · 26/02/2024 19:32

I posted on here about my baby's gender scan back about 6-7 years ago and got pulled up on it then!

I think most people do use them interchangeably when it suits them, and separately when it suits them. There's no consistency and when you ask them to be careful about which they mean (eg don't say "female", which is a sex, if you mean gender identity) they tend to get very upset and flounce off - in the context of discussions about sex and gender, that is, not more generally.

PurpleBugz · 26/02/2024 19:35

At school in the 00s sex was almost a rude word you used gender when you meant sex. I remember at uni doing sociology in seminar I was corrected and told to say sex as "gender is a social construct" the lecturer was very firm about it and almost blunt correcting me it was so out of character and I felt chastised. She did not elaborate further when asked just stated they mean different things. At no point in my course did we cover feminism (other than historically as in it's done now this is history when you study feminism). Looking back I'm sure my lecturer was GC and was aware of what was happening in the world but didn't teach on it. I kept on in ignorance until I was directed here after asking a few questions of someone on trans/women rights.

Now I have an 8 year old who crossed out the word gender and wrote sex in her workbook. I'm so proud of her and waiting for that to come back and bite and will defend her fiercely

Flickersy · 26/02/2024 19:48

RebelliousCow · 26/02/2024 19:16

That definition says : " Not in use"

The "not in use" applies to point 1 of Johnsons definition - where gender means "a kind or sort".

Point 2 ("sex") has no such note.

BackCats · 26/02/2024 23:00

Flickersy · 26/02/2024 15:46

They have always been used interchangeably, for hundreds of years.

It's only recently that people insist they're different.

See Merriam Webster's usage guide.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

Merriam-Webster is an American dictionary.

Stopsnowing · 26/02/2024 23:07

Goldwork · 26/02/2024 14:55

I would be interested to hear other opinions on this. I know the mumsnet line is that sex and gender have entirely different meanings and anyone using them interchangably is a thicky thick pants but this is quite a new complaint. Gender was always a polite euphemism for sex when I was growing up (was born late 70s). Nobody thought you could be a different gender to your sex so it was never an issue.

This

TempestTost · 26/02/2024 23:15

PerspicaciaTick · 26/02/2024 19:21

When I studied sociology 30 years ago, sex and gender were different. Sex referred to biology and gender referred to social roles.
Then the terms were conflated, apparently out of some sort of misplaced prudery.
Now, at last, they are separating again. Hurrah!

I think it could be considered a technical usage. It doesn't necessarily translate to everyday language on the street.

Flickersy · 27/02/2024 06:56

BackCats · 26/02/2024 23:00

Merriam-Webster is an American dictionary.

And the other three I referenced are British. It's been commonly interchangeable not just in the UK but internationally too.

RebelliousCow · 27/02/2024 08:35

Flickersy · 27/02/2024 06:56

And the other three I referenced are British. It's been commonly interchangeable not just in the UK but internationally too.

It does seem odd, though, that few of us can recall ever having come across 'gender' in any context other than grammatical - much before the late 1970's/1980's.

If you read the piece I posted yesterday, the writer mentions how 'gender' was only introduced in the 1980's to suggest to transsexuals that what they were about to undergo was not a sex change - but a change of presentation - a 'gender' -re-assignment.

RebelliousCow · 27/02/2024 08:38

Flickersy · 26/02/2024 19:48

The "not in use" applies to point 1 of Johnsons definition - where gender means "a kind or sort".

Point 2 ("sex") has no such note.

That is because 'gender' as a word was no longer in use. No alternative definition was given. It used to mean 'a kind or a type' of thing - but had fallen out of use. Not so 'sex'

BackCats · 27/02/2024 08:52

Flickersy · 26/02/2024 15:52

OED, Cambridge dictionary, and even Samuel Johnsons dictionary also clearly show sex and gender have had the same usage for many centuries.

When I look to the OED I am not getting that at all. I just put onsdictionaryonline.com into my toolbar and it’s coming up with ‘server not found’.

I am getting this (in my screenshot). Is are your screenshots from and America specific version that Brits don’t have access to?

When did "sex" and "gender" stop being used interchangeably?
Rosesanddaisies1 · 27/02/2024 09:02

They are very separate concepts, and shouldn’t be conflated. Sex is biology. Gender is social construct. Sex does not have to influence how someone expresses their gender identify

BackCats · 27/02/2024 09:03

With the Cambridge dictionary https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/gender you don’t see that usage until the American version.

When did "sex" and "gender" stop being used interchangeably?
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