Trans brains matching “acquired” gender

[DorotheaDiamond]

Dd had a psychology day at school where the guy they brought in said that trans brain scans match the acquired gender not the birth sex scans - I know this has been thoroughly debunked if you control for sexuality …does anyone happen to have the references handy?

I don't have the relevant references, but hopefully someone will be along soon to signpost.

I wish the schools would stop getting these bloody people in to talk such nonsense to kids.

Don't have a link handy, but just would like to point out that you don't need to debunk it, as it is clear from observation (including things like crime stats) that males exhibit male-pattern behaviour and females exhibit female-pattern behaviour, even if they're "trans".

So even if a brain scan was somehow "matching" the other "gender" (I assume that should be sex), it's clear that that's not having any effect on the things we form policy on (risk to women, sporting ability), so is irrelevant.

Sure, if you had an observation like "wow, transwomen behave really like women!" then you might want to be doing brain scans to figure out why.

But in reality, the question is "why do transwomen behave so like men?" And the answer is rather simply, "because they are men". No brain scans required...

I'd also be asking them how that all works with the rise in de-transitioning.

It is complete nonsense. I asked the surgeon who operated on my DCs brain whether you could tell the difference between the sexes and he said no. Also I know various children who have had parts of their brains removed (the bits that are supposed to be bigger/smaller depending on what sex they are). They did not change sex after their operations or suddenly want to, or change sexuality. Absolute twaddle that is also potentially upsetting for people with brain injuries.

I suppose the plasticity of the brain comes into play here.

But is it brains or bodies that are the issue? Are the physical differences between men and women’s bodies cancelled out by similar brain patterns?

Should transwomen compete against women in contact sport if they have a matching brain? Is it ok to share changing areas with male bodies if their brain structure is like a woman’s?

I’d still say no.

Id be interested in hearing how brain similarities mean single sex spaces are no longer necessary.

trans brain scans match the acquired gender not the birth sex scans

In order to test whether this is true, first it would have to be shown that male brains are distinctly different from female brains. This is not the case. It's a bit like height. The average male is taller than the average female, but if you were told that someone was 5'3" or 5'10", although it is more likely that the shorter person is female and the taller one male, the 5'3" person could be male and the 5'10" person female.

If you were shown the scan of a brain, it would be impossible to tell whether that person was male or female. It may be that there are some differences which would lead you to conclude that it was more likely that the brain was one sex or the other, but, as with height, it would be inconclusive.

If a brain is in a male body, it is a male brain. Any attributes of that brain are attributes of male brains, even if they are more common in females. The idea of a 'trans brain' which 'matches' the brain of the opposite sex is just fantasy.

Firstly, you have to believe in "gender". We're constantly told "gender identity" is something different, magical and separate, from sex at birth. Even though most people don't claim a gender identity, or need to.

So, quite simply, even if you could determine sex differences via a brain scan, there is no way you could determine a mystical "gender" because firstly, you need to decide what stereotypical ways a "gender" of brain (not sex of brain) should be acting, in order to match.

Good Essentialism: "Men and women have tiny differences in their brains that show which sex they are."
Bad Essentialism: "Men and women have major differences in their genitals, reproductive system and secondary sex characteristics"

roll eyes

So anyway, this has been long exploded. As someone else pointed out there are tendencies rather than essential differences but if you go down that route some people go "Sex is a spectrum" and it's not. Any more than picking height or muscle mass as your criteria to measure makes sex a spectrum. You wouldn't say "men tend to be taller therefore sex is a spectrum".

A more productive route sometimes is to point out that the differences in brains are (and keep emphasising that said differences are very minor compared to far larger biological differences that TRAs reject as defining sex), developmental not essential. For example, men's brains tend to be slightly bigger. Is that because of some essential difference in the brains? No, it's because men have larger skulls on average so there's more space to grow. There are some slightly different relative average sizes of some areas of the brain. Maybe that is because of some essential difference in the brains? No - it's again developmental. Male and female brains exist in a bath of hormones and as they grew the slightly different hormone levels lead to marginally different outcomes. Is this guy saying that trans people have opposite sex hormone levels? No - clearly that's not the case.

Finally, some people would argue that of course male and female brains are different because they have different DNA so you could check the chromosomes and see that they are different. Well yes - by the same criteria you'd have male and female eyeballs, male and female livers and male and female skin. It's a nonsense argument.

In my experience the best routes of challenging this nonsense are:

1. There are some mildly different averages which are developmental due to different hormone levels, not an essential characteristic. And trans identifying people don't have opposite sex hormones which is observationally easy to prove.
2. It has never been shown that trans people have opposite sex brains even aside from differences not being clear. This is made up.
3. For such an extraordinary claim, it's on the scientist making it to demonstrate evidence of such a thing and nobody has ever been able to do so.

And returning to the issue of some biological differences mysteriously determining whether or not you're trans and other biological differences arbitrarily not counting (dick or no dick), the expected argument would be "but a brain determines how you actually feel and who you are". Nah, high testosterone throughout your life has more effect on brain development and we can make a pretty good guess from the name that testosterone is made in the... testes. But I'd start with the first couple of points.

Anyway, you asked for actual references so here is one:
The 'Pink and Blue Brain' Myth - Transgender Trend

I thought it might be useful to have someone's account of how they approach this myth.

I would also contact your school and have very strong words about them teaching unsubstantiated pseudo-science.

Also point out the schools guidance that outside agencies must be carefully vetted and only deliver evidence based material - SSUK info here:

https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/factsheets/#DfE_Non-Statutory_Guidance_on_PSHE_and_RSE_Curriculum_Planning

If it were true, wouldn't scans be used in diagnosis?

It would save a fortune in therapy and the waiting lists would be reduced instantly.

My DC waited years for surgery - MRI scans already have few brain specialists able to study the scans for tumors and lesions.

trans brain scans match the acquired gender not the birth sex scans

There's so much wrong with this it's actually hard to know where to start. By "acquired gender" do they mean opposite sex? Are they claiming that each sex has a distinct brain type? How can a brain scan match a gender?!
And are they really saying everyone who IDs as trans has one of two(?) types of brain?

How do people come out with this shite.

How do people come out with this shite.

Indeed

If the scans would show that a "trans" brain is different from the sex they are why aren't they diagnosing transgenderism with scans? They don't, because you can't see it with scans.

I don't know about specific trans only research but I know Gina Rippon has spend decades looking into this and wrote a book about the sexism in neurology and Lise Eliot is another neuroscientist working in that area.

Isn't it coming from the idea that gay men brains are similar to straight womens brains in some areas?

I dont know if its been proven, but if true, it could be that those who have 'brains similar to their aquired gender' could be gay and not trans. Wild, i know.

Quite. Gina Rippon wrote a book on this. All these MRI studies are nonsense.

So what does a non binary brain look like? Does it change on a daily basis or is it just a blank slate of nothingness?

Transgender Trend have this potentially useful page on their website. https://www.transgendertrend.com/brain-research/

It looks like a lava lamp.

Agree with everything said so far, but also we’d need to have an agreed and coherent definition of “trans” - and we clearly don’t.

What about Pip / Philip Bunce? Eddie 'boy mode' Izzard?

Apart from it being

a) nonsense

b) not something a psychologist knows anything about

DNA of said brain? All you need to know.

Has anyone done a study as to whether female shite is fundamentally different to male shite ? And as you transition does your shite transition too, and does this happen instantly the moment you re-gender, or over a period of time as you get a bit bolder with your sartorial and pronoun choices . So, for example, do transwomen’s personal bathroom habits become more stereotypically female post transition? Quicker, less skiddy, less noxious, are they more inclined to clean up after themselves, put the seat down, put the new toilet roll on the holder and get rid of the cardboard tube, have opinions on toilet brushes, or bleach versus toilet duck?

There’s a ready made PhD here, not to mention a place of honour at the Stonewall Champions Christmas Lunch.

How odd - I was told this yesterday and that it was the latest science and how I was just old fashioned and a bit stupid.
Perhaps it's the argument theme of the week?

So now we have the wrong souls and the wrong brains getting into these mismatching bodies.

Hoe does the brain get in there?

Is there any hope my menopausal foggy brain may bugger off and be replaced with a sharper, smarter one or does this only happen in utero?