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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Women’s network at work - possible trigger content

30 replies

NeedANewOne25 · 07/02/2024 19:55

Hi,
I have name changed for this one.
I have joined the committee for the Women’s network at work (charity). I attended my first meeting today. I’m torn. There was at least one natal male on the Teams meeting from my observation, possibly two. We spoke about topics for the group to tackle over the year (menopause, breast/chest(!) feeding, miscarriage etc), some of the group shared personal examples on all of these topics. We spoke about organising an informational event for International Women’s Day. The EDI team representative spoke about inclusivity (great) but also spoke about CIS people, and how the word “women” includes many different types of people. Red flag for me. I want people to feel supported but the presence of natal male people in any discussion groups in the future is not inclusive for many women.
Do I stay on the committee and try to influence? Or do I give up? A lot of women don’t want to discuss female only issues in the presence of natal men no matter how lovely they might appear.
I love my job, I don’t need it for the income but I really want to stand up for the rights of natal women and girls.

What would you do?

OP posts:
Wasywasydoodah · 07/02/2024 19:56

Leave.

Wasywasydoodah · 07/02/2024 19:56

The network, not the job.

NeedANewOne25 · 07/02/2024 20:11

Wasywasydoodah · 07/02/2024 19:56

The network, not the job.

Thankyou. My husband said the same (his views are even stronger than mine) but I love my job and I want this organisation to wake up! I was horrified with some of the views my colleagues were presenting. Really anti-women.

OP posts:
Karensalright · 07/02/2024 20:14

Does this network have a terms of reference document? Could you bring that up, and ask for a sub group for natal women only so as they do not self exclude due to religious beliefs, GC beliefs, privacy and dignity.

The EQA is on your side here. Pick it up with HR.

I say this but would so piss me off that i would take it upon myself to set up a natal women's only group to discuss the issues exclusive to women.

AuContraire · 07/02/2024 20:17

Stay and influence.

I know it's hard to keep going when they're so insulting, but I do worry that we aren't going to be able to right the ship unless women steer it back on course from within.

Please try!

DownWithBigBrother · 07/02/2024 20:19

Its reasonable to expect a women's network to be single sex, it is not reasonable for them to expect women to discuss personal issues in a mixed sex group.

WelshSerafina · 07/02/2024 20:26

Sounds like your EDI rep is none too familiar with all the protected characteristics in the Equality Act, or that a single sex exemption could be applied here (or more likely doesn’t want to know).

How are women meant to feel comfortable talking about such personal issues? It’s absolutely outrageous that they are being put in this position. How dare they!

I think what you do here depends a lot on how confident you feel raising this with management and how supportive you think your organisation will be if you do.

Whether you decide to leave the network yourself, or stay, I think you know what you want to do. You say you want to stick up for women’s rights. If you feel you can, tell management why this is wrong. Case law should protect you from repercussions. And give your EDI lead a copy of Forstater Vs CGD Europe.

I’d personally kick up a right stink.

Boiledbeetle · 07/02/2024 20:33

I'm so glad I'm no longer at work!

Can you imagine it the other way round? A men's group talking about getting their prostate checked, testicular cancer, penile cancer, premature ejaculation etc etc how comfy would they be if a couple of the women in the office decided to come to the meetings! It would go down like a lead balloon!

eurochick · 07/02/2024 20:36

As you don't need the job for the income you can afford to put your head above the parapet.

NeedANewOne25 · 07/02/2024 20:59

Thanks so far for everyone responding. I have been pretty agitated this evening and am going to bed early, so I’ll read properly and respond tomorrow.
Thank you.

OP posts:
Toseland · 07/02/2024 21:18

I think this is what all these new work women's groups are (set up as part of the EDI networks?) they have been set up to watch, 'educate', torment and by the sounds of it, humiliate you by putting you in a position where it seems normal to overshare your trauma for the men - bastards.

SidewaysOtter · 07/02/2024 21:20

eurochick · 07/02/2024 20:36

As you don't need the job for the income you can afford to put your head above the parapet.

I think it’s important to remember that not everyone wants the direct fight. And there’s nothing wrong with that, we’ve all seen the opprobrium heaped on GC women and the mental toll of having people turn on you should not be underestimated.

OP, in your shoes I think I’d make some preliminary enquiries. What about a sub-space for natal women only? How does “inclusivity” extend to GC views? What about people who don’t like the term “cis”? The reaction would guide whether I thought a) there was any hope and b) was a fight I had the stomach for on the basis of how bad the fallout was likely to be.

If the answer to either of those was “no”, I’d be suddenly finding myself far too busy for committees and focusing my efforts elsewhere.

Wasywasydoodah · 07/02/2024 21:25

You can’t change them, sadly. Society will have to change first.

PermanentTemporary · 07/02/2024 21:28

I'd leave the network. But then I'm not that strong.

What's the point? Why put yourself through these insults? A women's network that isn't for women? Why even bother?

If there were transmen in the network I might stay, because I believe so strongly that it is important to keep young women in touch with other women. That's the only thing that would keep me there.

Crouton19 · 07/02/2024 21:54

I would stay and try to steer things round to female-only issues. I also like the idea above of a subgroup for [cis] women only. Even if you have to use their silly words, it highlights that female women have different needs to the other, male sort.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/02/2024 22:14

Stay if you can.

The setup meeting for our women's network was very similar, with an EDI rep being all about 'not just cis'. And all our networks (of course the rest were set up long before they got round to women) are open to whatever the group is plus allies.

But I pushed back on cis and got the EDI rep to withdraw that. And slipped in a change of group description from 'anyone who identifies as a woman' to 'women, however they identify'.

Then every time groups are suggested to talk about different topics I remind them that not everyone will feel safe sharing personal, medical, or traumatic details with people who haven't experienced the issue - so we always have some open discussions for awareness raising and education, and some 'closed' for mutual support. The latter don't say 'no men', but the topics necessarily limit almost all of them to actual women.

Crankywiddershins · 07/02/2024 22:33

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/02/2024 22:14

Stay if you can.

The setup meeting for our women's network was very similar, with an EDI rep being all about 'not just cis'. And all our networks (of course the rest were set up long before they got round to women) are open to whatever the group is plus allies.

But I pushed back on cis and got the EDI rep to withdraw that. And slipped in a change of group description from 'anyone who identifies as a woman' to 'women, however they identify'.

Then every time groups are suggested to talk about different topics I remind them that not everyone will feel safe sharing personal, medical, or traumatic details with people who haven't experienced the issue - so we always have some open discussions for awareness raising and education, and some 'closed' for mutual support. The latter don't say 'no men', but the topics necessarily limit almost all of them to actual women.

More cunning than a weasel with two tails!

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/02/2024 22:36
tree weasel GIF

Always volunteer to write things, then you can steer the content.

menopausalmare · 07/02/2024 22:40

Set up your own splinter group.

BathTangle · 07/02/2024 22:49

And slipped in a change of group description from 'anyone who identifies as a woman' to 'women, however they identify'. Love this - am going to steal it for our women's network!!

One of the key aims in our WN (which is currently technically open to anyone) is actually to promote women across our company meeting each other, as we have around 40 offices across the country - so it gives everyone a chance to meet people that they feel comfortable sharing things with....which tends to mean that people are able to create their own networks of likeminded people, but without the "intersectional" lot complaining that we are "excluding" anyone.

Boiledbeetle · 07/02/2024 22:50

menopausalmare · 07/02/2024 22:40

Set up your own splinter group.

news cops GIF by South Park

Splinter group brings up very strange gifs!

Boiledbeetle · 07/02/2024 22:52

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/02/2024 22:14

Stay if you can.

The setup meeting for our women's network was very similar, with an EDI rep being all about 'not just cis'. And all our networks (of course the rest were set up long before they got round to women) are open to whatever the group is plus allies.

But I pushed back on cis and got the EDI rep to withdraw that. And slipped in a change of group description from 'anyone who identifies as a woman' to 'women, however they identify'.

Then every time groups are suggested to talk about different topics I remind them that not everyone will feel safe sharing personal, medical, or traumatic details with people who haven't experienced the issue - so we always have some open discussions for awareness raising and education, and some 'closed' for mutual support. The latter don't say 'no men', but the topics necessarily limit almost all of them to actual women.

But I pushed back on cis and got the EDI rep to withdraw that. And slipped in a change of group description from 'anyone who identifies as a woman' to 'women, however they identify'.

You crafty.

oops pressed post instead of space!

You crafty so and so you!

JoyousAsOtters · 07/02/2024 22:52

If you don’t need the money and love your job, you are in a position of strength.
If you have the skills, perhaps as a PP said you could take the minutes - you could then be sure of everything being recorded as it is said, which could be very important. It is also a chance to ask for clarity - your income is not dependent on this so you can ask eg for definitions and push for inclusivity for all women not just one or two special groups. If everyone leaves who isn’t a TRA that makes it look on paper like ‘everyone’ is on board

VivaDixie · 07/02/2024 22:59

NoBinturongsHereMate · 07/02/2024 22:14

Stay if you can.

The setup meeting for our women's network was very similar, with an EDI rep being all about 'not just cis'. And all our networks (of course the rest were set up long before they got round to women) are open to whatever the group is plus allies.

But I pushed back on cis and got the EDI rep to withdraw that. And slipped in a change of group description from 'anyone who identifies as a woman' to 'women, however they identify'.

Then every time groups are suggested to talk about different topics I remind them that not everyone will feel safe sharing personal, medical, or traumatic details with people who haven't experienced the issue - so we always have some open discussions for awareness raising and education, and some 'closed' for mutual support. The latter don't say 'no men', but the topics necessarily limit almost all of them to actual women.

Oh my days I think you are my new girl crush ❤️🤩

IwantToRetire · 08/02/2024 00:32

Very sad that you have been put in this position.

Assuming you like your job enough and feel it is achieving something, ie you want to go on working there, maybe a direct confrontation isn't the best option.

Not sure the hierarchies ie who agrees framework for the network etc., but maybe in straightforward lets all be adults about this, can you not raise the point that based on recent court cases employers are meant to provide equal support to both the belief that TWAW and the belief that women are biological females.

So on a professional level, and to be in line with equal ops. the first meeting should have been about arriving at a democratic decision as the whether the "women's" network was based on gender identity or on biological reality.

No one, whatever job title had the right to jump and say what it is.

If they dont respond or say well no body else is bothered, then you could say you feel unable to participate, one because management has prempted the network establishing its goals, and two because your genuine beliefs are being denied.

Of course you will have to work out for yourself whether you think that will impact on your work relationships.

But I dont think you should have to battle it out. But they should be aware that their behaviour is the same as actually excluding you.

And for all you know if you challenge the pre-emptive assumption about the network membership other women at work may feel able to speak up.

Mull it over, rather than feel you have to immediately say something.

Do you have any idea if anyone else at work feels the same as you?

Hope you have a good sleep and feel refreshed and able to decide what to do.

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