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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Stephanie Hayton in The Times

141 replies

nythbran2 · 07/02/2024 07:46

Share token: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14e32be1-7d9e-41e9-833d-04defedc9cad?shareToken=7730fec65ff9cf9bf7f92cc29de3781c

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2024 13:42

Yes it's a far cry from the posed shots, @TrainedByCatsToBeScathing

WhenWereYouUnderMe · 07/02/2024 13:42

Well that was utterly unilluminating...

Reallybadidea · 07/02/2024 14:12

I grew up in the evangelical wing of the church and divorce is still seen as being really quite shameful, particularly if you've grown up in that tradition (I don't know whether that is the case for the Haytons).

Staying married, despite being on the receiving end of some pretty awful behaviour, is also generally lauded because forgiveness, sanctity of marriage, yada yada. IME DH and SH would likely have been viewed very favourably by publicly acknowledging a fetish, DH still being a man (rather than a lesbian) and staying married.

Not quite sure how they/the church square the vow "with my body I honour thee" with DH's transitioning...

Datun · 07/02/2024 14:23

Staying married, despite being on the receiving end of some pretty awful behaviour, is also generally lauded

Does that work both ways?

If it was Stephanie plastering her sexual proclivities all over the national press, and writing a book about what gets her off, while saying she'll leave her entire family about it if she has to, would her husband be expected to keep quiet and support her?

IME DH and SH would likely have been viewed very favourably by publicly acknowledging a fetish, DH still being a man (rather than a lesbian) and staying married.

I can well believe it.

But I don't think many people would set much store by the credibility of the church over sexual shenanigans, in the first place, to be honest.

TinselAngel · 07/02/2024 14:25

It makes it all the more difficult for you to ever leave of course, when you've been forced into the press to declare you're not leaving. This is probably not a coincidence.

Boiledbeetle · 07/02/2024 14:47

TinselAngel · 07/02/2024 14:25

It makes it all the more difficult for you to ever leave of course, when you've been forced into the press to declare you're not leaving. This is probably not a coincidence.

I always presumed that was why MPs in the 80s got the clutching wife's hand photo op done the morning after she'd discovered he had a thing for... Well exactly the same thing DH has a thing about actually. So that by the time the wife is over the shock and raging she's already declared she will stand by her man to millions of people!

RebelliousCow · 07/02/2024 15:03

PriOn1 · 07/02/2024 12:45

She’s committed to stay with DH so what she says is going to reflect that.

This was how the article came across to me. It seems as if she has decided to stay (as the right thing to do) and is trying to rationalize that decision. It doesn’t seem like the writings of someone who is fully accepting and at peace with the situation as it stands. Only time might resolve this, I think.

We all make compromises and take decisions in life that we know will entail inevitable restrictions and frustrations. As a Christian she might use the circumstances of her relationship to hone her conmmitment to her vows - and in some ways relish the discipline of having to overcome adversity to do that.

I can understand that myself. I've done similar.

Metamorphosising · 07/02/2024 15:07

TinselAngel · 07/02/2024 14:25

It makes it all the more difficult for you to ever leave of course, when you've been forced into the press to declare you're not leaving. This is probably not a coincidence.

Oooph. So much coercion by enlisting helpful allies in high places- trade unionists, the media, school governors, etc. Seeming ‘reasonable’, ‘open’, ‘honest’, ‘brave’ clearly works much better for asserting control, getting others to pressure and enforce, than by being overtly demanding yourself.

Woman2023 · 07/02/2024 15:11

@CantDealwithChristmas

The intimacy comments are obviously a friend consoling her when sex was taken out of the relationship by Hayton's operation.

Or....it could have been what SH actually thinks?

My comment was based on this from the article. Presumably the friend didn't just randomly present Stephanie with a list. She obviously found the lack of physical intimacy hard or it wouldn't have been raised at all.
"Shortly after Debbie transitioned, a friend gave me a list of different types of intimacy. Genital intimacy was one, but there were many others."

Woman2023 · 07/02/2024 15:17

This comment is weird as well (sorry can't remember who made it)

There seems to be a desire to shut down SH because she doesn't say the things, or respond the way, some GC people would like.

I've only heard people wishing SH would speak out more. They'd like to hear her views.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/02/2024 15:44

TinselAngel · 07/02/2024 14:25

It makes it all the more difficult for you to ever leave of course, when you've been forced into the press to declare you're not leaving. This is probably not a coincidence.

Chilling.

LadyBird1973 · 07/02/2024 16:02

And of course, no one wants to believe that someone they love is capable of treating them badly, being selfish or manipulative.
People are very good at convincing themselves that the situation they are in is their choice, that they have control and freedom.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 07/02/2024 16:39

IME DH and SH would likely have been viewed very favourably by publicly acknowledging a fetish, DH still being a man (rather than a lesbian) and staying married.

That’s a bit different from my experience of evangelical churches. In them, SH’s choice would be seen favourably, but DH’s confession of his fetish and his transition would, I think, have been viewed with suspicion - the acknowledgment of the fetish would be applauded, but the continued practice of it would not. Unless, of course, the church members and clergy were successfully gaslighted, which does seem possible.

I am remembering when an apparently upstanding church member turned out to have been physically abusing his family. His wife and children were supported, particularly in practical ways, and his behaviour was not condoned.

Farmageddon · 07/02/2024 16:49

I get the vibe of a damage limitation PR puff piece. She is being trotted out to show how lovely it all is...

I also wouldn't be surprised if DH announced his intention to run in an election or something in the near future, or we are being primed for his new media career.

nepeta · 07/02/2024 17:30

This is almost completely an aside, but the purity spiral equivalents used to be called circular firing squads in that they are doing the job for the enemies of whatever movement we are looking at. Or perhaps the circular firing squads were created partly as a consequence of the desire for no disagreement within the movement?

Feminism is susceptible to this, perhaps more than any other political movement, possibly, because it is about something very central to so much of women's lives and disagreements about the tenets and strategies can feel like some women's concerns being ignored or even attacked and ridiculed.

I used to agonise over this phenomenon, a lot, because splintered movements don't achieve as much as movements which can come together, at least very temporarily, for pragmatic reasons, to achieve one goal at a time. Even if the movement splintered, the new sub-movements should try to keep communication lines open and sometimes come together to support shared goals.

But I have no idea how to fix this tendency toward splintering, except that I have noticed in myself an acceptance of the imperfection of all of us as we grow older and also an ability to decide when a disagreement is about something negotiable for me, and the (very few) cases where it is too fundamental to be ignored. So perhaps discussing this issue in advance and training for how to cope with it might help, by discussing past splintering, what caused it, and how it could have been avoided?

The gender identity ideology is an even more complicated case, because what is loosely viewed as 'gender critical' is really at least two, perhaps three completely different ideological movements. The anti-feminist right-wingers oppose gender identity ideology for reasons which are almost completely opposite to the ones radical feminists have, for instance. So here a certain kind of coming apart is going to happen.

TrainedByCatsToBeScathing · 07/02/2024 17:53

Woman2023 · 07/02/2024 15:17

This comment is weird as well (sorry can't remember who made it)

There seems to be a desire to shut down SH because she doesn't say the things, or respond the way, some GC people would like.

I've only heard people wishing SH would speak out more. They'd like to hear her views.

Exactly, many of us felt the article would have benefited from being longer.

I’m keen to from different points of view from different people, all except the porn addled and frankly DH’s publicly available comments on the sissy porn he was viewing mean he fits into the group I’m not interested in hearing from. Comments I understand are in his book so I won’t be reading.

PriOn1 · 07/02/2024 19:29

RebelliousCow · 07/02/2024 15:03

We all make compromises and take decisions in life that we know will entail inevitable restrictions and frustrations. As a Christian she might use the circumstances of her relationship to hone her conmmitment to her vows - and in some ways relish the discipline of having to overcome adversity to do that.

I can understand that myself. I've done similar.

Absolutely. I have too. I tend to cling on to relationships far too long because I find it hard to stop loving people, even when self-respect dictates I ought to.

AsTreesWalking · 08/02/2024 06:51

I agree with TrainedByCatsToBeScathing's remarks about DH and porn. I thought when I read that first article that it was odd - you cannot reconcile using porn with Christian belief because porn treats human beings as things. Christians believe that we are all uniquely precious; anything that reduces people to things to be made use of is profoundly wrong.

WarriorN · 08/02/2024 07:21

I'd be very happy for Stephanie to go on woman's hour and be interviewed.

My concern is that if DH did, it would be for the book and so quite celebrationary.

Because for balance, I think it's high time there was a feature on trans widows again.

It's the way the bbc like to roll; put it all out there for balance and let people make up their own minds.

ArabellaScott · 08/02/2024 07:39

TinselAngel · 07/02/2024 11:34

When you're in a relationship like that, you do feel sometimes that by setting boundaries you are making active choices and so are not a "passive victim". But in retrospect when you've got out you see that they are not true choices as you are always bull dozed into them.

It can be difficult to accept if you have been a victim of abuse. I always minimise what I went through by saying that my ex was at the mild end of the AGP spectrum and I've no doubt he probably tells all and sundry that I abused him by telling him hard truths and trying to persuade him not to transition.

Stephanie obviously thinks that a woman with a good job who does presentations, like she does, is less likely to be an abused "victim" than some other type of woman. But abuse and coercive control is not class, career or education based it can happen to any of us. It's maybe also difficult for women who identify as clever (which Stephanie must be to have a physics PHD), to admit they've been abused.

Women often only start learning about abuse once they have exited an abusive relationship, whilst you're in one there's no energy left for dealing with it. Abused women are not a passive "other" and staying is not always the "strong" decision.

Unfortunately this hostage statement reinforces rather than distracts from any suspicion of abuse.

I imagine that if I was in her position with, I presume, mainly religious friends and a husband who was celebrated by the entire gentry left, I would think differently to how I do and certainly would have found it difficult if not impossible to leave.

I don't judge any trans widows for making different decisions to my own, it's important to leave the door open for them.

You've said everything I wanted to say. Thanks, Tinsel.

Being strong doesn't unfortunately protect someone from being subject to coercive control.

The idea that if a woman is in a coercive relationship that its because she is weak or stupid or failing somehow is a misconception. Some find it comforting in the way that victim blaming can be an attempt to reassure, and some are just unclear on the dynamics involved.

I agree with a PP that this piece left me sad and uncomfortable, and I don't want to speculate on SH's words too much.

Froodwithatowel · 08/02/2024 08:26

It reminds me, also uncomfortably, of the gender stereotypes and very heavily sexist expectations placed on women that I would have hoped these days are very out of date. That a good woman (a strong woman) doesn't walk away from her marriage whatever he does to her, she stays and supports and sees it through at any cost to herself.

Which places no value at all on the woman as a person or an equal, or considers how healthy this might be, or that the woman is actually entitled to a happy, satisfying, mutual marriage that isn't making the best bravely of the crumbs created by a bloody awful situation and a selfish man. And that she is not in the relationship to do all the work and all the care taking.

I don't know how much Christian ethics come into that. Goodness knows anyone familiar with the relationships board knows how much male partners benefitting from the beliefs above loathe and detest women who open other women's eyes to that it is not wrong to want other things or to leave, that they do not have to settle for what he lets her have, or encourages and empowers her should she decide that she wishes to leave.

I would never judge any woman for any decision she makes in that awful situation, no one but her can fully understand it or how she is coping with it or what is influencing her choices. I am very uncomfortable with the framing that to leave is 'weakness': that is rather grimly revealing. Not least that it is rather illustrative of the awful, dehumanised, service unit view of women that is foundational to the TQ+ ideology.

RoyalCorgi · 08/02/2024 08:52

Stephanie Hayton is an adult woman, capable of making her own choices. Why are women on here patronising her by making out that she was coerced into writing that article for the Times? We might think her choice is wrong, or not a choice we would make, but ultimately it's up to her. I've seen women stay married to men who have endless affairs - they stay with them because the security of marriage, along with the financial benefits, feel like a better option than leaving and making their own way in the world. It's a trade-off. It's not what I would do but I have to acknowledge that it's a choice some women make rather than pretend they are so cowed, or downtrodden, that they can't think for themselves.

CantDealwithChristmas · 08/02/2024 08:54

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 08/02/2024 09:01

Stephanie Hayton is an adult woman, capable of making her own choices. Why are women on here patronising her by making out that she was coerced into writing that article for the Times? We might think her choice is wrong, or not a choice we would make, but ultimately it's up to her.

I tend to agree and I find this thread a bit distasteful.

Even if she was coerced or suffering from false consciousness I'm not sure this deserves so much public scrutiny.

Justwrong68 · 08/02/2024 09:24

NotBadConsidering · 07/02/2024 07:57

Odd article. It just sort of…stops. Where’s the rest?

Maybe she was told to stop talking because the washing up needed doing

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