The Key for School Leaders and RMW

[Brainworm]

The Key is a membership service for school leaders. It provides guidance, resources and CPD. Over half of all schools in England have membership. Every school I know uses it to check their policies and practices are compliant.

One of their 'top articles' this week is called 'Responding to the DfE's consultation on gender questioning children: guidance and resources. They suggest the article provides 'expert advice and resources to help you respond with confidence' to the consultation.

The article basically says during the consultation phase, don't follow the guidance as 'legal advisors' have suggested it may be illegal. It also says schools must continue to support trans pupils (like the guidance suggests you shouldn't).

It suggests Gendered Intelligence and Stonewall are a good resource to guide schools to completing their response and provides a link to the 'Pride and Progress' website, which name drops RMW and the tab labelled 'Supporting Guide for Consultation' takes you through to Stonewall's guide to responding to the consultation.

The reach of The Key shouldn't be underestimated. I think they are either out of loop on all that has been happening in this arena or have been captured. Either way, it's not good!

Yes but the OP is arguing there is Tavi data saying social transitioners are just as likely to desist as those with no transition.

We need to be clear on this. I need to be clear if I can make any arguments or challenges and there are people reading these threads collecting info to make challenges.

Does social transition lead to increased likleihood of medicalisation?
or
Do social transitioners desist at the same 80% rate as those who don't socially transition?

Completely understand why you're asking this @RachelWalshsDog I suspect the answer is that there's little clear evidence as this is an untested experiment on children. So much research and data was forbidden / deemed transphobic by the powerful trans lobby, at the time given unparalleled access and influence to NHS healthcare for children despite their complete lack of qualifications.

I fear this won't end until the children who have followed the progression through to permanent sterility, body modification & becoming a life long patient as a result, start suing the trusted adults who enabled it instead of safeguarding them as children are entitled to expect

There's an urgent need for some court cases where schools are expected to explain why they substituted their requirement to safeguard children for an allegiance to the trans lobby. I believe there are several class actions in the pipeline - wonder what's happened to them?

I name change pretty regularly and every time, people in the field who know me spot me. I am not worried about this, but don't want to out myself to wider audiences.

When I get back from work I will look for online links with this data/the figures. I have Tavi branded presentations saved on my home PC with this information . It was collected, as part of discharge records, so the data is held. My slides are circa 2014. They use the term natal sex!

The term 'social transitioning' wasn't common place then. Children were encouraged to wear what they wanted/felt uncomfortable with, and there was emphasis on anyone can wear any clothes. Schools were encouraged to have gender neutral uniforms and make arrangements to ease distress if/where children were distressed by single sex provision. The focus was on relieving distress and removing unnecessary gendered expectations whilst exploration was undertaken to understand what was going on. This was 'watchful waiting'. No jumping to conclusions, no referrals to endocrinology except for a very few.

This is now packaged as social transitioning and as an idea represents something different to what was happening back then.

There is also data to show that those who were referred for blockers were more than 80% likely to go on to cross sex hormones, which is in stark contrast to the 80% who desisted. However, there was debate about whether this was because those referred for blockers were in the 20% who wouldn't have desisted and so the data showed they were referring the right patients. Conversely, it was acknowledged that going on puberty blockers proved to eliminate/ reduce resistance rates.

This was back in the day before thought and language were policed and ideology took over!

https://www.transgendertrend.com/children-change-minds/

'Eleven studies have been conducted looking at whether gender dysphoria persists throughout childhood. On average 80% of children change their minds and do not continue into adulthood as transgender. Some of these studies are very old, the first being published in 1968 and others in the 1980s.'

'Childhood social transitions (name changes and presenting as the opposite sex using hairstyles and dress) were also shown to be important predictors for persistence of gender dysphoria into adolescence, especially for boys (see Figure 2). The reasons for this are currently unknown. The independent role and impact that social transitions play on persistence has never been studied. It may be that social transitions make it easier to persist in their new gender identity or conversely it may make it more difficult psychologically for the gender dysphoria to resolve and for children to desist. Long term studies are urgently needed in this area.'

'CONCLUSION: Most children grow out of their gender dysphoria as they reach adolescence. Social transitions and/or puberty blockers are frequently used to ameliorate symptoms in these children. However, the long-term psychological impact of these therapeutic strategies on children is unknown. Therapeutic approaches for children with gender dysphoria are not evidence based and long-term outcome studies are urgently needed in this area.'

References this long article:
https://www.thecut.com/2016/07/whats-missing-from-the-conversation-about-transgender-kids.html

Thanks @Brainworm I'd really appreciate any clarity yu can bring to this.

I also thought that it was more like 96% that went from blockers to cross sex hormones?

I'm not sure how we can measure the 80% of social transitioners desisted if they're not clarifying what social trtasition was.

But I'm most concerned as this 80% social transitioners desisted would support social transition as neutral? Whihic goes against Cass and what I've been arguing in RL.

Thank you @ArabellaScott

This seems to conradict @Brainworm's Tavi data that social transitioners desist at the same rate?

This seems more in line with Cass but I want to be sure that I unedrstand the data and any contradictory data.

In the past was it watchful waiting? Where does that come into play?

I haven't time to read it all cloesly rihgt now but I think social transitioners are not separated out with a comparator so not a contradiction per se?

There is Finnish adolescent ‘gender ‘ expert ( if that is the word) called Kaltiala. Finland has a lot of experience with thus.

There was a long conversation with her published on Twitter by Leo Sapir which I had kept but unfortunately it has gone now all but one sentence. I have found this article by Leo Sapir where she says:

“Asked by Helsingin Sanomat what she thought of gender self-identification for minors—a proposed element of the new Finnish law that did not ultimately pass—Kaltiala emphasized that it is “important to accept [children] as they are,” but this means neither pressuring a child to conform to behaviors traditionally associated with the child’s sex nor “negating the body” by confirming that the child’s gender self-identification is real. “In either case,” said the psychiatrist, “the child gets a message that there is something wrong with him or her.” Evidence from a combined 12 studies to date demonstrates that when children with cross-gender or gender variant behavior are left to develop naturally, the vast majority—“four out of five,” according to Kaltiala—come to terms with their bodies and learn to accept their sex. When they are socially transitioned, virtually none do.”

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/science/articles/finland-youth-gender-medicine

More about her https://www.thefp.com/p/gender-affirming-care-dangerous-finland-doctor

It was this @ArabellaScott 'Childhood social transitions (name changes and presenting as the opposite sex using hairstyles and dress) were also shown to be important predictors for persistence of gender dysphoria into adolescence, especially for boys'

Socail transition was a predictor for persistence of geneder dysphoria?

But Brainworm suggests social transition has the same desiatece rate so wouldn't be a predictor?

I think the issue lays in different ideas about what constitutes social transition.

I am referring to children being told that they should feel free to wear their hair as they like, dress in the way they like, and feel comfortable with same sex attraction etc. snuck name would also be agreed, so Alice is called Al etc. This sort of exploration would lead to desistance because of recognition that they can be their natal sex and do and be all these things.

I am thrown by the term 'social transition' as it brings to mind something different from the above (which challenged limiting stereotypical ideas).

Doing the exact same seems to now suggest something different - conceptually

Is this what the Tavi meant by social transition?

What about kids who get a new opposite sex name, tell everone they're now a girl and everyone uses preferred pronouons?

This is what schools are being asked to do. Do we know the outcomes for chilern how are supported in this social transition?

It's also odd that feminine boys who grow up to be gay usually sas adults wear mens clothes, have a mans style hair etc, even if they're feminine men. They don't grow up and still want to wear women's clothes.

So they don't just stop identfying as female they also want to conform mostly to male norms.

Also if it's 80% desistenace for those who do and don't socially transition in this clothing/hair type way, then there's no advantage for it. If you insist the boy wears trousers or let him wear a skirt same outcome? Desistance.
So it seems puberty is the common link and causality in desistance not any social support?

T

The "80% Desistance" myth is based on old definitions and flawed studies.

https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/debunked-no-80-of-trans-youth-do

My posts about desisting refer to 2014. At the time, this information was drawn from outcomes recorded at discharge.

At that time, sex was referred to as 'natal sex' and not 'assigned at birth. Mermaids wasn't incorporated and CYP came to GIDS for treatment for gender distress. Talking therapy was provided with the goal of helping relieve the distress. Broad hypotheses were developed and explored relating to the possible cause of distress. I think this is what led to the high levels of desisting - the underlying causes and needs were addressed.

The focus wasn't on expecting others to pretend anything, and there was no suggest that natal sex would change.

I am not sure why there is scepticism about the desistance rate or the capacity for this data to have been collected. What didn't happen at this time was persistence (did those who were still identifying as trans desist at a later date? Did those who had desisted before discharge identity as trans at a later date? This wasn't tracked).

I think some of the confusion is arising from not understanding the context of the time.

I think lots of the children who came to GIDS were struggling with past abuse, others with rigid/inflexible thinking with corresponding preoccupations with categorising, others struggled with their sexed bodies.

Removing restrictions relating to expectations about boys/girls haircuts, clothes, sexual attractions allowed them to explore what it felt like to express themselves in this way and the difference it made or didn't make to their distress. At the time it didn't feel like a big deal, nor did it lead to persisting with a trans identity - but rather the opposite.

I think GIRES, Gendered Intelligence and Mermaid have screwed that up by bringing in ideology. I think the post modern turn and growth in critical theories of race and gender has enabled their ideology to accelerate. The Tavi stopped being a psychologically based service when they took up the affirmative approach.

I've only skim read the thread (sorry) but in terms of desisting and de-transition rates, I understand that the waters are muddied because if a trans identity has been embedded then it can become very difficult to row back from. This is why it is so important to 'hold space' for an child who is expressing a wish for others to treat them as the opposite sex.

Stephanie Davie-Arai discussed and explained it better recently at this event : Webinar: Childhood social transition – Clinical Advisory Network on Sex and Gender (can-sg.org)

Also, further information here : A childhood is not reversible - Transgender Trend

Another good point made in the CAN-SG webinar was that a child doesn't socially transition themselves, it is everyone else around them who makes the social transition happen.

Thanks for that link @Leafstamp - that was so interesting.

Yes thank you Leaf

A clear definition of social transition is probably needed.

Another aspect of social transition from which it's harder to return from is adults saying anything along the lines of, yes you are/ should have been the opposite sex as that rubber stamps the idea that that is a possibility.

They communicate to the child that they believe that is possible. And so the child internalises that belief as fact. That that is a possibility.

I'd say pronouns come under that definition.

To me social transition is pronouns, adults agreeing that they're 'wrong' or different and specifically that either they do or might need to change sex, using facilities for the opposite sex.

Names is less of a huge issue for me as people change nick/names all the time, names can be unisex.

For me pronouns are anatomical/ biologically linked to the individual.

Additional issue if clothing for boys is particularly sexual/ inappropriate. David beckham and Kurt cobain style stuff I'm less bothered about.

I think there is lots of room for holding different things and people in mind when it comes to this area.

8 to 10 years ago, the term watchful waiting (as I understood it) didn't seek to limit gender expression. Clothes, hair, nicknames etc were explored, so CYP could experience different forms of expression and see how they felt. The focus was 'you can be you' and dress how you like. The goal was to feel comfortable with who you are (in Tavi speak, being able to integrate all parts of yourself and not seek to split off from aspects you aren't happy with).

With 'Watchful waiting', I think the 'waiting' referred to holding off making a commitment to a new/different identity that you want others to affirm.

The process didn't seek to dissuade patients from having trans identities, it didn't seek to affirm either. There was a middle ground. The vast majority desisted because they benefited from time, space and thought. I think being able to be gender non conforming was helpful. Not only as it relieved some distress, it gave them a chance to explore how this made a difference to how they were feeling - and what that might be about.

The CYP who came through the door of GIDS (a Tier 3 mental health service) were not those who were experiencing common childhood/teenage angst. These were very distressed young people, really struggling in life.

Very true @Brainworm.
It's difficult to forgive the organisations that have given certain groups free access to children and YP in order to gaslight them that their bodies and mental health problems can be "cured" by transitioning. Allowing them to deliberately silence adults including clinicians, social workers, educators and politicians is a scandal of immense proportions.

It's hard to be calm when looking at the carnage that this has inflicted on the young. The Key taking this approach and displaying zero insight into all the growing evidence is unprofessional to say the least.

Yes agree, the narrative has shifted from watchful waiting and exploring identity in terms of expression and gender stereotyping to 'I am the other sex' and medication is urgent for the body to help the mind. Plus self 'diagnosis' and parental belief in that diagnosis.

I know the Tavistock used to pitch it to some children that perhaps they were "very into fashion." Which leaves self expression very open and moves ideas away from the body.