Let's have a poll!

[AdamRyan]

Thought it would be interesting to see the majority view on this board for what the consensus is on how trans people should be accommodated in society. I want to see what less vocal posters think

Options:

1. as they identify. Exactly the same as the sex they identify with. Access to womens spaces at all times, protected in law.
2. Third spaces: Treated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts, use third spaces or treated as birth sex for times where biology is important for safety or dignity (i.e. hospitals, prisons, sports, changing rooms, providing or receiving intimate services like waxing, smear tests)
3. As their birth sex. People can choose to refer to them in their acquired gender but there is no expectation of this; all official documentation and interactions with services remains as birth sex.
4. Other - please explain

Let's see!

I think therefore when it comes to trans people in particular feminists have a shared interest in protecting them from the harms the patriarchy causes.

But “trans people” can’t be defined and is too broad. It includes Karen White, Katie Dolatowski, Amy George, the guy who steals babies’ nappies from bins. How is it a shared interest of feminists to protect those in this ( wide and increasing) subgroup of trans people?

At least some trans people ARE the patriarchy, that's what it is all about.

Young women feeling the only way they can survive is to become men, men feeling that they must have everything women have. Because both groups see males as superior and entitled to that superiority.

Possibly all trans people. Without a belief in the right to enforce the power of the patriarchy, why transition at all?

Male superiority and the privilege that goes with it. That is what trans is all about.

I think therefore when it comes to trans people in particular feminists have a shared interest in protecting them from the harms the patriarchy causes.

Can you define what you mean by 'trans'?

Females running from being female is a completely different scenario to males with fetishes.

You need to define your terms before you make sweeping statements about the patriarchy.

Pornography is certainly a very big negative for women and girls.....yet there is evidence aplenty that not an insignificant number of men are developing trans identities as a result of pornography addiction and usage.

So much of what a 'female identity' is based on is predicated on images and tropes from pornography. The whole " Get Tits first" sentiments are rife. Being a woman is seen as being synonymous with being a sexual object. So many MTF presentations are highly sexualised.

The idea that TW are innately vulnerable is nonsense. They may be vulnerable to aggression from other males in the same way they might be if presenting as very camp and overtly gay - but that is far as it goes.

There was a young TW teacher at my daughter's teacher training school. He wore thick make up ( staff and students could not, though - all girls school) and the girls were expected to call him 'Miss'. He was same sex attracted and had a boyfriend.

He ran a LGBTQ+ lunchtime club at which he encouraged often vulnerable girls to believe they " might be trans". He referred to one girl as " a little slag". Not nice - and changed my daughter's perception of him totally.Being a vulnerable male doesn't mean that you are not reproducing ugly stereotypes and even further promoting them - at the expense of women and girls.

Beinga vulnerable male doesn't mean that you are not reproducing ugly stereotypes and even further promoting them - at the expense of women and girls

This. I think anyone who hasn't seen some quite horrible misogyny from some gay men, who may themselves be vulnerable to male violence, really haven't been paying attention.

Good posts @RebelliousCow and @BackToLurk

Why do you think you get to tell me what I "need" to do? I don't need to "define my terms" at all. You want me to, that's a different thing.

You could always build on what I said with your own thoughts instead of make demands that I do your thinking for you. I'm not a mind reader.

... when it comes to trans people in particular feminists have a shared interest in protecting them from the harms the patriarchy causes.

No. The only responsibility of feminism is to women as a sex class.

I don't believe that 'trans' people should ever have been seen as a problem with a legal solution. They are extreme gender nonconformists, which caused them social problems which could have had social solutions (a campaign to promote tolerance for instance). Instead we got Stonewalled into a legal fiction which, as it happens, does harm women.

They are extreme gender nonconformists, which caused them social problems which could have had social solutions
Do you not think those social solutions are exactly the things feminists are pushing for? To expand, I do think that which is why I think there is a reason for feminists to be involved in supporting trans people, while protecting sex based spaces.

I've seen quite horrible misogyny from women. That's because the patriarchy influences everyone, not just men.

It’s an odd thread where the OP doesn’t want to define the terms of a poll that they are carrying out or discuss the ideas contained within the OP. Makes you wonder what the point of it is. We might all be talking at crossed purposes. Perhaps that is the point.

Well in that case, the statement you wrote:

I think therefore when it comes to trans people in particular feminists have a shared interest in protecting them from the harms the patriarchy causes.

can’t be built on because it contains meaningless and nonsensical words. So until you produce a statement that has solid foundation, there’s nothing to build on and no discussion to continue.

Well in that case, the statement you wrote:

I think therefore when it comes to trans people in particular feminists have a shared interest in protecting them from the harms the patriarchy causes.

can’t be built on because it contains meaningless and nonsensical words. So until you produce a statement that has solid foundation, there’s nothing to build on and no discussion to continue.

This.

Your option 2
Third spaces: [trans people] Treated as their acquired sex in most social and work contexts, use third spaces or treated as birth sex for times where biology is important for safety or dignity

How exactly can anyone who doesn't know what you mean by trans people in this option (or indeed the others) state that they can be treated their 'acquired sex'. It's pretty fundamental. Some people may be more comfortable if you mean people with a GRC, some people may be happy for anyone who has 'socially transitioned', others may be unhappy in any circumstances. I don't see that asking you what you mean by trans is that unreasonable. Is it because you would use different definitions in different situations? You've already said that a GRC would be required for housing in a third space in prison, would you require a GRC to be in a women's book club? Or are you expecting everyone else to be mind readers and just know what you mean?

I've defined the patriarchy - systems and structures that uphold our society where straight white males hold a disproportionate amount of power.
Trans people, do I really need to define it, fine. People who feel they are the opposite sex to what they actually are, and in this context are threatening patriarchal norms by being extremely non conforming.
Feminists- people who want to achieve equality for women (or for me, get rid of patriarchal oppression).

These are all quite common ideas so I didn't think I'd need a glossary on the feminist board. How do you participate in feminist discussion if you think the basic concepts are "meaningless" and "nonsensical"?

Exploring the terms of a discussion is part of the discussion.
Only in a debate or decision making scenario do you have to thoroughly clarify all terms before starting.

If we were actually birthing laws right here, I’d object to lack of clarity. Instead we’re working things out together via discussion.
I am refining my beliefs by reading other people’s questions and challenges.

Is that Socratic method? My philosophy years are long ago.

I don’t think anyone needs to know the answers to make a discussion worthwhile.

Trans people, do I really need to define it, fine. People who feel they are the opposite sex to what they actually are, and in this context are threatening patriarchal norms by being extremely non conforming.

Ok, so you ARE including Karen White and Katie Dolatowski et al in the group that you think feminists should have a shared interest in protecting?

Trans people, do I really need to define it, fine. People who feel they are the opposite sex to what they actually are, and in this context are threatening patriarchal norms by being extremely non conforming.

So you are using different definitions in different contexts. In some contexts it will be enough to 'feel they are the opposite sex' in others they'll need a GRC and a history of non-offending behaviour?

Exploring the terms of a discussion is part of the discussion.
Only in a debate or decision making scenario do you have to thoroughly clarify all terms before starting.

This isn't just a debate, though. It's a poll. Terms need to be clear if you want to present it as evidence of something.

You are too in the detail again. It doesn't matter what my specific interpretation is. I put the option in the poll to see the split between "no males in womens spaces under any circumstances" and "maybe some circumstances are acceptable".

Again, you are proving my point about the less vocal side of the debate by repeatedly demanding I clarify my own opinion and then shouting me down.

The poll is showing a sizeable minority for option 2 so it isn't clean cut and "scolding" people (to use a beloved FWR term) doesn't change their minds

I think @AdamRyan is saying Karen wouldn't be in the prison, but Karen can be in the book club, and the women's work support group, and possible the toilets. Who knows though

That was quick! What did you say to get deleted @AlisonDonut?