The right thinking member of society

[Brainworm]

I've just caught up with the most recent ET thread. It read to me as though yesterday's witness' position relied entirely on the upset the defendant's behaviour caused (leaving aside the hornets nest about differentiating belief and behaviour).

It is my understanding that the English (and Scottish?) legal system uses the concept of 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' to determine what is reasonable in terms of a person's reaction. So if a checkout person felt threatened by a customer asking them to tell them their name, the perceived reasonableness of feeling threatened would be determined through the lens of this 'right thinking person'.

However, the narrative around trans people is, ultimately, that they aren't 'right thinking people' or 'the person on the Clapham omnibus' they are incredibly fragile and must be handled as such.

What then comes in to play is 'reasonable adjustments'. From the ETs that have happened, it must be becoming clear to employers that the adjustments that they are determining as 'reasonable' are unreasonable and shouldn't be made. Regardless of one's beliefs, expecting team members not to discuss important issues about service delivery in front of some team members is clearly unreasonable.

As Maya Forstater reiterated in the recent Heretics episode, the great thing about court cases is that people cannot hide behind slogans and accusations of bigotry, they are forced to defend their views and decisions.

I remain convinced that 'the person on the bus' would determine many behaviours deemed transphobic by TRAs as entirely reasonable.

It does seem like there are more and more contexts in which 'no debate' has moved on to cautious discussion. The new tactic is to claim that these discussions aren't in good faith, involve dog whistles to pull in other dissenters or, when that fails - are unkind. There is also the 'and it's only rapid GC feminists who disagree' (making out the man on the bus agrees with them).

I work across different public sectors and discussions are becoming more and more productive. Most people can hold in mind competing needs and interests and the reasoning behind the perception that things are 'going backwards' for trans rights - what is changing is openness to consider the wider impacts of enacting the rights they claim.

Sorry - this is very long, my point is .......how to handle the gulf between different perceptions about what that 'man on the bus' thinks, and what to do about those who think that he heed should be given to any passenger's views other than those who are trans.

That's a really good question. Politicians still regularly push the "most vulnerable group ever" in society despite a quick glance across society that confirms this is completely untrue.
There is a much more robust debate finally happening amongst the population and hopefully this will contribute to open and accurate discussions - accompanied by much wailing of transphobia of course.

I would like a discussion about solutions:

Prisons- transgender people should not expect to be imprisoned according to their gender identity, but by their biological sex. In difficult cases, where people present convincingly as the opposite sex, they should be in the transgender wing of their biological sex estate.

Toilets - third spaces? Biological men only, biological women only and unisex.

WRT prisons and other single sex spaces......if there is a proportionate reason for having single sex provision, then any reasoning for allowing the opposite sex undermines the rational for having a single sex space.

What would the 'man of the Clapham omnibus' view as a reasonable justification for allowing some but not all of the opposite sex in to a single sec provision?

I'm thinking the man on the Clapham omnibus may not accurately reflect the prevailing view of the rest of the uk these days!!

The Equality act was created to bring together prior legislation that dealt with different groups who had historically experienced discrimination.

Unfortunately it has created 'sacred castes' who can claim to be 'extra special' and need to be considered in a totally different way to those without protected characteristics.

I think the man on the bus thinks that we should help everybody to meet their basic needs, understanding that some have greater needs than others, but not necessarily to cater to their whims and wants.

To clarify - entering single sex provision as someone of the opposite sex is not a need, I view it as a 'whim or want'.

I agree, and to quote Kemi Badenoch: the Equality Act 2010 was not created to be a sword but was intended to be a shield. It just hasn’t turned out that way in practice; judges interpret the law as it’s written and not as the drafters intended it to be read.

I had great hopes for the amalgamation of the various Acts of parliament dealing with equality legislation into one overarching Act but groups such as the disabled and elderly haven’t seen much improvement in services and provision as a result of enacting the EA 2010.

I've always found the idea of a 'reasonable person' a really strange one, tbh.

It's a subjective view of what the objective view might be.

Bit of an echo of 'living as the opposite sex', in fact. It's an oxymoron.

I'm trying to move towards a workable, compromise position, although by design without all the facts required.

If a transwoman was put in the male prison estate, would they genuinely be at risk? I don't know. Despite the hormones and/or surgery, surely they're at no more risk of sexual or physical assault than any other man of the same build?

If transwomen in the male prison estate find their gender dysphoria worsening, is that a reason to move to the female estate? How could you tell? Would a transgender wing make the difference so transgender people could be together?

Could transmen ever go in the male estate? One shower and surely they would become at very real risk, as would be female build?

Where is the data? How should policy be developed and by whom?

I'm happy for these things to be discussed and attempts to reach solutions be found - I don't just hate trans people!