The European Union's first directive on combatting violence against women and domestic violence will not include the crime of rape, after a number of countries including Ireland, could not agree on a legal definition

[DerekFaker]

For Christ's sake!!!!!!

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0118/1427172-domestic-violence-directive/

I don't understand. Surely they discuss until they find an agreement? I'm sorry I don't have time to read right now.... Is the issue the meaning of consent? Or penetration? Or is it to do with the requirement, or not, of a penis? Isn't this too important to just leave?!

Is the issue the meaning of consent? Or penetration? Or is it to do with the requirement, or not, of a penis?

Some countries define it simply by lack of consent, some set a higher barrier of lack of consent plus the use of force. France and Germany are not backing it. (France because they are reviewing their own laws, I think, and want to do that first.)

You'd think in the absence of agreement they could at least include it with an [as locally defined] note, as an interim measure.

(For clarity, France and Germany aren't the only blockers - but they are big enough to tip the scales in either direction, whereas one of the smaller countries changing stance would have less effect. )

Fucking useless, then.

My understanding is that a number of countries, including Ireland, were holding out for a definition of rape that included all non-consensual sex acts - for instance, the thing Julian Assange was accused of, removing a condom during otherwise consensual sex. Other countries, including France, wanted rape to be only sex obtained by violence.

France is currently revising its own laws and I'm sure there are French Mumsnetters who know far more than I do about this.

Personally, I think putting consent at the centre of the rape definition is a lot better for women than insisting on proof of physical injury, but can see that delaying the harmonisation of the law is disappointing.

Who are the teams debating/deciding the issue?

In my opinion, as the female body is usually the one raped, females should be the ones making the definitions.

As I understand it, the consent-only definition of rape is then used to widen the net as to become useless and or include women raping men.

Doesn't Germaine Greer talk about trivialising rape?

Interested to hear others thoughts, but if the gender nuts Irish state proposes something then I am suspicious.

I’m Irish and I agree; if the current Irish government suggests something then it’ll likely be the wokest version it could be and it’ll likely be of little use to actual women.

Is British definition lack of consent + penetration + penis?

Requiring use of force is ridiculous. The violence is the rape in many scenarios. Women often don't fight back because they know they'd quickly be overpowered. Much like prey mammals don't attack predators. It's normal to freeze or even to some extent appease.

But I hear the concern about opening the definition up too much too. The physical disparities (being pregnant with a rapist's child is no joke) and societal inequalities ( realising that so many of the men around you could also be capable of doing the same to you) make the effects of rape about so much more than just the act itself. I just don't believe it is the same with the sexes reversed.