Definitions of 'gender identity'

[ThatDogIsACat]

The most common definitions of 'gender identity' all refer to inner feelings and perceptions that seemingly have no origin and no reason. For example something like this:

One's innermost concept of self as male, female, a blend of both or neither – how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth.

Or like this:

Gender identity is defined as a personal and internal sense of oneself as male, female, or other.

I think this is underdefined and that 'gender identity' is perhaps better understood as a conflation of desire and knowledge. Those who desire to be the opposite sex in some regard, or at least desire not to be the sex they are, may use 'gender identity' to rationalise that desire into an identity belief. Conversely, those who don't have any such desire, which is most people, will rely on knowledge of their own sex if asked 'what is your gender identity?'. Particularly if it's some sort of questionnaire and the available answers include 'female' / 'male' or 'woman' / 'man'.

Looking at the forums where the trans-identified go to discuss transition, it's quite revealing to see how many of them change their self-description over time, and how this, for example, will often segue from 'I want to be a woman' (desire) to 'I am a woman' (identity).

I believe it helps to view 'gender identity' in this way because it brings more clarity to the underlying process of how such identities are developed, recognised and declared.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this. Please tell me if I'm dead wrong or missed something fundamental.

It's all about perception? A belief in one's self? Sure. We know.

It doesn't make gender identity a reliable foundation to base or change laws to allow people to identify as something they are not when it really matters.

One's innermost concept of self as male, female, a blend of both or neither – how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth.

One key thing here worth picking on is the word "self". Why SHOULD this be restricted to oneself? There's no reason to restrict it.

Surely anyone should be able to have a gender identify for anyone:

A person's innermost concept of a person (themselves or others) as male, female, a blend of both or neither – how individuals perceive a person and what they call them. A gender identity of a person can be the same or different from that person's sex assigned at birth

If we're going to do this, why isn't that better? What privileges an auto-gender-identity (one for onesself) over an allo-gender-identity (a gender identity for another) when people interact?

Forcing others to comply with your auto-gender-identity over their allo-gender-identity is incredibly normative, surely?

Everyone has their own truth, right?

Hmm. Reckon the word "desire" is very revealing - as is euphoria. It's not up to women to pander to men suffering from either. We're too busy trying to get these people away from children and young people so that they can grow in safety without believing that their pubertal bodies are flawed and can be fixed with drugs and surgery.

An oversimplified idea of the typical characteristics of a person.

What is gender? IMO it is a polite form of "sex" (not relevant here) and it is sex stereotypes.

What is an identity? IMO it is either an integral fact about how you see yourself in the world (I identify as British. I identify as a Londoner) (not relevant here) or it is an aspiration (I identify as one of the worlds greatest undiscovered musicians).

Put together a gender identity and it is an aspiration to opposite sex stereotypes, or it is an unnecessary belief that a core part of you is you adherance to your own sex's stereotypes. Only it's not because a gender identity can also have nothing to do with sex stereotypes or gender. It can be an animal or some other shit. Which makes it look like gender is being used for personality, and lots of TQ+ people seem to think that your personality is dictated by which sex stereotypes you adhere to.

A big part of the problem with all this is that the ideas are so incoherent and nonsensical that it is almost impossible to describe or argue against them without being incoherent and nonsensical yourself.

Arguably the only rational definition is that gender identity is "utter nonsense that would appear to be the combined efforts of a spoilt young teenager and a precocious toddler."

One's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth.

I don't understand how you can "feel" you are the type of personality that has specific body parts. It's like saying you have the sense that you are 5'3 when you're not - although you could feel a little of what it's like to be taller etc with heels.
Or feeling that you really have a mole on your right hand.

Totally imagined.

I don’t understand why so many of you keep talking about sex stereotypes and personalities. It’s exactly the same as saying you don’t understand how anyone can identify as / feel British; they were born in Britain or not; they just like drinking tea and have a British personality and as far as you are concerned can’t possibly feel / identify as British. It just sounds very odd.

@Peasandsweetcorns do you think there are personalities that match, or don't match, each sex? If so, could you give one or two examples of personality traits that match being male?

Liking tea or not has no bearing on your nationality so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. Something about cultural identity, that most people would have because they have lived in a culture made up of others in that culture... (but you at least were able to give an example of "liking tea" that might make someone feel British .... We never even get one example of a thing that makes someone feel they are male or female!)

You are saying that one would have a gender identity as they have grown up seeing people of those sexes? And concluding that their likes and preferences etc are because of the sex of their body?

I don’t think there are personalities that match or don’t match sex. That idea seems as confusing to me as saying that liking tea or not has a bearing on nationality.

I think the point I’m trying to make is that my feeling is that for many (all?) people the thought that they are male or female is present first, then they try to work out why they have the thought, rather than they consciously decide to have the thought because of something. So, the other way around to what some people here are thinking possibly.

It seems like it is that way round to me because you learn it so young you have no memory of learning it. So, you think, why do I have this thought? It must be because I have these body features, and people say that’s a female / male body.

My sense is that it works the same way if you have say female body characteristics and the thought you are male. I think people recognise the thought that they are male is present first, and then try to determine why they have the thought. So they say they feel male, because of the presence of the thought, and then may think well perhaps I have that thought because of some characteristic of their brain (as an example). I don’t think people have awareness of how the thought developed.

I think that’s what I was trying to get at.

My sense is that it works the same way if you have say female body characteristics and the thought you are male. I think people recognise the thought that they are male is present first, and then try to determine why they have the thought. So they say they feel male, because of the presence of the thought, and then may think well perhaps I have that thought because of some characteristic of their brain (as an example). I don’t think people have awareness of how the thought developed.

What would make a female person think she was male?

I think there won’t be one reason, and that it would be combinations of different factors that would be different in every situation.

Sorry peas it's been a long day and I don't understand

So if you are female but think you're male you're hallucinating different body parts?

Or do you mean "I'm good at maths, I'm female, so I must be good at maths because I'm female, therefore I think all people who are good at maths are in some way female"? But then male people who are good at maths would equally believe it's a male characteristic?

Surely thinking any character trait is "really" male or female can only be from sex stereotypes? Or I guess not necessarily stereotypes, but based on you concluding similar personality traits that must belong to each sex?

I don't know what you mean by "the thought that you are male". Do you mean male bodied, or having some kind of character trait you wrongly think is exclusive to male people?

Neither, lol.

I think a lot of time it’s: someone has the thought they are male. Then: Why am I having that thought? And then: I don’t know why.

It’s time for sleep though (that’s my thought).

Delusions have nothing to do with reality.

No I think it’s just the thought ‘I’m male’ is present, and the reason for its presence is unknown by the person. So it’s not based consciously on anything. It must have arisen as a result of some combination of factors, but I think the person generally isn’t conscious of what the factors were.

I don't understand this at all. I think I'm female because I can see my body is one of the type that is called female. Same way I know a book is a book.

Are you using "male" to actually mean male, as in having a male body, or do you mean a different thing?

It’s not necessarily a delusion since someone can have the thought without believing it’s true.

I've only known one trans person who wanted to be the opposite sex. Others I've known would have given anything to be happy in the body they had, rather than feel the need to change.

This makes me think it must be a deeply felt sense of being in the wrong body. I assume gender stereotypes are a big part of it too. In the case of the one person I knew who wanted to change sex (and has transitioned by taking testosterone), they were distressed by their experiences of being female (harrassment by males being one factor).

In short, I don't think it's about wanting to be the opposite sex so much as believing one is, somehow, innately. Which must be to do with gender stereotypes, unless it's due to a belief in imaginary essences. Some people I know believe in different male and female brains, which can somehow be on the wrong body...

I’m trying to say I think it’s like if you were thinking exactly like you described that you do, and then you over time you realised you were also thinking you were male. And you didn’t know why. So, I’m using male in an abstract sense, just as an idea about yourself, and you didn’t know where it came from.

So, I’m using male in an abstract sense, just as an idea about yourself, and you didn’t know where it came from.

What does 'male' mean in this sense though? Someone who prefers marmalade to jam? Someone who is risk-averse? Someone with traits considered masculine in a particular time and place?

Why would you use a word that describes a specific type of bodies to describe an abstract sense? The only explanation is that you have also attached another meaning to it. But what?

Like I said, it's like saying you felt you were a person with a mole on their right hand.

But if they don't believe it true then it is without meaning and utterly outrageous to expect people to go even 0.01% out of the way to go along with it.

Others I've known would have given anything to be happy in the body they had, rather than feel the need to change - presumably they spent years and years in therapy trying to learn to accept their body?

In the case of the one person I knew who wanted to change sex (and has transitioned by taking testosterone), they were distressed by their experiences of being female (harrassment by males being one factor). Puberty plus harassment by males was probably the start middle and end. Not wanting to be sexually assaulted is reasonable. Doing whatever it takes to avoid it is reasonable. Expecting society to treat a woman as a man because she wants to pretend to be a man and make herself look like one to try to convince males not to assault her is not progressive and it is not gender dysphoria or anything close. It is a rational(ish) with deeply irrational aspects response to horrific events.

"In short, I don't think it's about wanting to be the opposite sex so much as believing one is, somehow, innately." How is it innate when it is triggered by harassment by males?

Some people I know believe in different male and female brains, which can somehow be on the wrong body... this theory is out of date. The latest theory is everyone has a gender goblin living in them, and sometimes the gender goblin is wrong sex. Sometimes, if your correct sex gender goblin is perfect enough, you don't even know you have one, hence why some people don't believe gender identities are a thing.

Hmm. Not sure your comparison works the way you intended. It suppose it does make a certain sense to compare one's awareness of (actually) being female or male with an awareness of one's national origin - neither of them you had any control over, unless you emigrate in later life and even then that won't undo your socialization.

However that doesn't work for cross-sex identification. So your comparison would be with somebody who was born and brought up in Britain, with a British passport and habits learned in childhood, but somehow has always felt they're really French because....? All you're left with is indeed stereotypes.

That might carry more weight, if we didn't know that every time a parent talks about their child being the opposite sex, they absolutely tie it to sexist stereotypes.

Jazz Jennings in America (star of a trans reality show), apparently wanted to be a girl from the age of three, because he wore tutus. Jazz is on their third genital operation I believe.

Jackie Green (the child of the head of mermaids), wanted to play with dolls, and after his parents removed them all, and said they were just for girls, he told his mum he must be a girl. She took him for genital surgery on his 16th birthday.

The Tavistock clinic have said that a massive marker for whether a youngster thinks they are the opposite sex, is that they are gay. And gender nonconforming. Not an inner knowledge, at all. A knowledge that they are acting contrary to society's expectations of people of their sex.

Boys can't wear tutus and play with dolls. Girls can't act masculine and fancy other girls.

It's sexist claptrap.

The tea drinking doesn't work. Tea drinking Brit is a stereotype. If a French person drank tea, it wouldn't make them British, no matter how much they wanted to be. Likewise if a British person hates tea, it doesn't mean they're not British.

(and as far as I know, both my examples, male individuals, are attracted to males - so it would be called gay in old money)