The sort of feminism where rich women walk over poor women. Times article on egg 'donation'

[Forwarder]

The Times is quite fond of human body parts for sale stories. Here's one where a woman in her late 40s can't get pregnant (shock!)

So she has to buy a younger woman's eggs. But :-( that's pricey.

The woman's own sister is too busy to be an egg donor. So it's contracted out to a lesser female.

Or have I got this wrong? If the sexes were reversed then the 40 something man would be gaily starting a new family with 30 yo woman. Is this a win for equality?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/238e675a-e2b4-42e3-8bc1-bd6d46403093?shareToken=9579efa3a218abf8dabc9fb74b22a5c3

@JustanotherMNSlapperTwat - given the influence of epigenetics, those babies are not the same as they would be if their biological donor had carried them. In fact they wouldn't exist otherwise. I respect your right to make your own decision about what you consider to be the ethics of the matter, but you're right that I don't agree that it's exploitative in the way that I think surrogacy is exploitative.

In fact they wouldn't exist otherwise.

Thats a pro life argument.

I'm firmly pro-choice. That includes somebody's choice to accept a financial incentive to donate their eggs or sperm. If your eggs had been suitable, and you had no partner, would you feel the same about accepting donor sperm? Even if the sperm donor was paid?

No I wouldn't have accepted a sperm donor in the same way I didn't move on to an egg donor when IVF failed repeatedly with my eggs

Using "the child wouldnt exist otherwise" is a pro life argument. One I keep seeing to justify egg donation and surrogacy because its about a "woman's choice" but actually women giving birth at any costs to other women is actually far more akin to pro life than it is pro choice.

And I don't believe a financially coerced choice at a vulnerable point in someone's life is a choice. Otherwise it would also be okay for a person living in absolutely poverty to sell a three month old baby if they chose to.

I wonder if you would feel as positively about egg sharing if you were the mother on the other side of the story @Britinme with a daughter whose egg implantation has failed multiple times and has run out of eggs because the women she donated them to has got them, and that other woman gets pregnant with your daughters baby, but your daughter remains childless.

The financial coercion and the vulnerability of your daughter might have been more noticeable in that situation

ETA: I mean nothing nasty or accusatory in this post, I'm not sure I pitched the tone quite right so apologies if it doesn't come across well.

In a way. They aren't her biological children are they? I would view them similar to children who've been adopted.

Interestingly (to me at least) fetal cells can cross the placenta into the mother. They can embed into her tissues it's called microchimerism. These cells can have an impact on future fertility and breatfeeding and scientists are still working out what else. Even being passed along to future siblings by recrossing the placenta.

To me that means that even a child who is not genetically yours becomes yours, at least in a small way and you are theirs. It's an arguement against surrogacy really as you are removing the baby from the person they effectively colonised.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/babys-cells-can-manipulate-moms-body-decades-180956493/

AIUI donor eggs are donated after the donor has completed her own family so I don't see that situation arising, unless you know of instances where it did. I've not heard of it elsewhere.

When a child is adopted, it is removed from the body of the woman who gave birth to it (and probably cared for it during its first few weeks of life - it's not often that children are removed at birth). I don't see that as at all the same as a baby being born to the woman who carried it and continues to care for it. Are you suggesting that the baby somehow knows in utero that it doesn't have the same genetic material as its mother and has the same experience as a baby given birth to and cared for for a few weeks and then given to somebody else to raise?

It's in the HFEA guidelines that this can happen and they govern what happens to embryos and fertility treatment etc in the UK. The specifically warn than this senario can arise if you donate eggs, that you might not end up with a baby but someone else might with your eggs

I just realised I don't know what country you are in so legislation may vary.

I'm in the USA. No idea what the rules are here. DD is in the UK. She had three failed attempts at IVF on the NHS using their own genetic material, and then went to a private clinic. I think the whole thing cost them around £18k. Seeing what she went through five times (three failed NHS attempts then having to do the whole downregulation part of IVF in order to accept the donor egg, which at that point had been fertilised and was an embryo, and then the fifth time to accept the second embryo which had been frozen at the time the first was created) I don't see that her experience was much different to any other woman wanting IVF. But some women who might not otherwise be able to afford the treatment can afford it and have their own children while going through the exact same treatment but donating some of their eggs. I don't share your view that this is coercive. This is not the same as somebody paying somebody else to carry and give birth to a baby for them.

It is not the same as surrogacy no. It is still potentially taking advantage of women at a vulnerable time.

I should perhaps have used the term undue influence rather than coercion, I was using coercion in a more colloquial rather than legal sense

But regardless of me being slightly pedantic with the language there are plenty of senarios where the offer of large sums of money in order to undertake an action that otherwise wouldn't be undertaken are recognised as unethical.

I don't see that her experience was much different to any other woman wanting IVF.

Respectfully its not her experience I am concerned about. I am concerned about vulnerable women and babies and embryos being bought and sold.

When we did IVF I was asked if I wanted to donate eggs since I was already going through the procedure my treatment would then have a significant discount. I said why not it's a win win if I can help someone out who is in a similar boat. It didn't work out in the end due to the number of eggs collected I kept them for ourselves.. it didn't work out for us on that cycle anyway. Either way now I'm glad it didn't work out.. I would have felt a bit uneasy about my genetic child being out there in another family..

Respectfully an egg is neither an embryo nor a baby.

I'm confused I thought that your daughter used both an egg and a sperm donor and therefore that the entire embryo was donated. Apologies if I have this wrong I would have changed my wording

Eta by baby I was referring to surrogacy and I know you feel more as I do on that I wasn't referring specifically to your daughters experience at that point but I don't think I worded it well, apologies

No but it is 50% of the genetic payload and 100% of the mitochondrial payload iirc.

I believe the egg and sperm donors were unknown to each other. The donor eggs were used with the donor sperm to create embryos specifically for them. DD had to go through the whole downregulation system to be able to have them implanted. It was much the same experience as when she had her own eggs collected, fertilized and implanted, except that those did not take.

Still not a baby unless you are of the pro-life way of thinking, which I am not.

Yes exactly, so an embryo was used, this was the embryo I was referring to being sold in my post

As I have mentioned I also don't believe in sperm donations being made in exchange for money so for me the whole embryo is problematic not just the egg

And are you of the opinion that your personal ethical concerns should govern other women's options and opinions? I don't mean to be rude when I ask that, but there are many many women who would not have their families if this was not possible. You made that decision and presumably came to terms with its consequences, but should every other woman have to do the same?

I believe that my concerns, and the concerns of others, that the financial inducement of the donation of genetic material should be examined ethically is valid. After all you can't buy a kidney (well legally) so why an egg, both are parts of a person's body.

And there are parallel ethical concerns being raised about the payment of volunteers in medical trials, because the concern is that the inducement of money to those often poorer means that the participation is not actually firmly voluntary and therefore is not ethical.

should every other woman have to do the same?

Yes this is what I believe. I'm not saying that it is easy, or kind, or not devastating. I wouldn't even say I have come to terms with it. Nevertheless it is right thing to do.

there are many many women who would not have their families if this was not possible.

And this is devastatingly sad. But no one has the automatic right to have a baby.

I would also like to say that for those of us who don't have children, the use of the word family to mean those with children is quite painful. I do have a family. It might not include a child but nevertheless I have a family.

Apologies for the insensitive use of the word families. That was thoughtless of me.

However my pro choice thinking is that people are entitled to do as they choose with their own bodies, with or without financial concerns.

An interesting debate and so respectful on all sides.

So does that extend to the buying of body parts? So if someone was willing to pay for a kidney for example and a poor person wasn't willing to donate until the money was so much they couldn't turn it down?

Because for me, I have found in these conversations previously, that everyone does have a line as to what people are allowed to do with their bodies, its just that people's lines are in different places, and my line is drawn a little earlier than yours for example, but I don't know if that's the case for you?

I appreciate the apology

Tbh I doubt that @Britinme and I will agree on this because we come at it from the two extremes, but I appreciate her (I assume her) taking the time to speak to me about her side of it because it helps check my thoughts on this