Am i gender non conforming?

[FleetwoodName]

Name changed for this. I was reading another thread and reference was made to gnc lesbians, with a brief description.

I'm a straight woman. Clothes of choice are jeans/combats/shorts etc with fleece/sweatshirt.

I have always had short hair. I wear ear studs but rarely other jewellery. I don't wear make up.

I don't consider my appearance much, beyond neat, clean and appropriate for whatever I am doing. I'm just really not very interested in style and beauty, rather good health and doing things that do interest me. I suppose i have my own style but I think of it as just 'clothes'.

I have young adult and teen children and do run of the mill family things.

Am i a gnc woman or a woman? Or does gnc only apply to lesbians? Or is it just another label?

I'm not taking the piss, I promise. I'm just a bit curious.

Gender non-conforming for me is a descriptor, not an identity. For a woman, it's not being feminine, for a man, not being masculine. What feminine and masculine means changes over time and cultures, it's not fixed.

We used to say things like 'a girly girl' or 'a tomboy' for women who did or didn't seem feminine, respectively. GNC is just the new expression for not feminine.

So very interesting. Thank you all for different perspectives. I don't see myself as anything but a woman, but i notice the term used fairly frequently on this board, unlike the rest of mumsnet, so as I said, i was curious.

So perhaps what i meant in my OP is, what is the difference between me and a butch (or gnc) lesbian, apart from the fact that I'm heterosexual?

Nothing, don't you think? Other than external factors like the term "butch" being very well established within lesbian culture. The use of "butch" to describe a heterosexual woman is usually not self applied and is often used as a criticism or an attempt at being derogatory by people who dislike the lack of conforming to feminine norms.

Sounds like none?
You can choose to opt into or out of the GNC label, or just ignore it altogether if you want.

Long hair and make up isn't a woman thing
It's a beauty company sales pitch
A woman with no make up, jewellery and botox in shorts and t-shirt is as much a woman as someone sucked into all that
.

There’s such a long and elaborate list of things a woman is supposed to comply with to be properly “feminine” that I think everyone has at least a few characteristics that are “gender non-conforming”. Especially as holding and expressing opinions is frowned upon.

The people who come closest, and certainly those who try hardest, tend to spend a lot of time artfully propping their chins up with their dainty wrists to hide their adam’s apples.

1700s chaps

Completely agree with this.

I'm 50 and when I was young thought we were happily moving away from gender stereotypes. I have been horrified in the past decade to realise how we have actually been moving firmly towards sexist stereotypes - and not just in GI, but having my kids made realise just how bloody sexist kids toys and clothing is now. Much more so than in the 70s.

Though I do particularly hate the way GI is selling this sexist shit dressed up in pseudo-science, pseudo academic bollocks. They are complete and utter snake oil sellers.

Its genuinely upsetting to hear how we have regressed so much that young men will stand up and say, as I heard one recently say, ' A woman is someone who is feminine regardless of genitals or chromosomes'. Thanks GI. Thanks that you are raising generations of young people to buy into sexist shit stereotypes again. Thanks for that.

Indeed.

I particularly like the tiny sheep.

I was in Holland in the mid-80s & everyone, but everyone, had short hair apart from me. I stood out so much with my straight, waist-length hair that one elderly lady approached me in Vroom & Dreesmann & asked me if I'd let her touch my hair! Nobody thought short hair was GNC or a sign of anything. I was just out of fashion.

There are other ways of being GNC, anyway - or there were, in the old days. Like working in a male-dominated industry & making good money, or insisting on being addressed by a title that didn't give away your marital status. Even liking a certain type of music (I was told, "But girls don't like that!").One would hope that these days we'd recognise that anyone can like anything & opportunities should be open to all, but it seems society is going backwards. Can't wait for the pendulum to swing back the other way.

I have very short hair, and am wearing jeans and a jumper and no make-up. I have a STEM degree and work in tech. I enjoy changing car batteries and do all the DIY at home. Gender schmender. I’m not non-conforming, I’m non-complying.

IIRC pink was regarded as a masculine colour at one time, as it's the weaker version of red, so pink was for boys & pale blue was for girls.

Quite. Gender stereotypes vary enormously and constantly according to time, place, culture, historical context and many other factors. They are not ever stable things.

I’m not non-conforming, I’m non-complying.

I like that, and intend to steal it

Yes i like it too!

As an aside, isn't it interesting how that Mermaids picture of all the possible types of 'gender' are really supposed to be pictures of body types, not of some inner feelings, with some clothing and hair options added?

It's both wrong because it introduces sex into the picture and shallow and trivial because gender roles and norms for women in many countries are awful things (Afghanistan comes to mind) and not something that any woman or girl can decide not to conform with.

On the topic, being a gender-critical feminist is certainly being gender-nonconforming. So in the gender identity ideology we should all be transed, and that shows how sexist the belief system is.

It would have.things were more stereotypically gendered in the 80s. Always amazes me when people suggest they weren’t.

Hmmmm.

My brother had waist length hair and was often mistaken for a woman from behind (he’s quite short and had a slim build). I wore actual men’s clothes (in the most) and had my hair cut very short (with an electric shaver). I remember my big sisters’ boyfriends wearing very flamboyant clothes, perms and eyeliner. All very David Bowie.

Life of course was more sexist - my sister couldn’t get her salary counted towards her and her husbands mortgage for example.

I remember women asking to be referred to as ‘Ms’ and it being treated a big joke in tv and in the media.

My mum gave up work when she got married (her boss basically told her to resign and that women only got married to ‘have sex’).

Maybe we were kicking against this world by sticking up our fingers to stereotypes of what women ‘should’ look like.

Now we are at the point where a man can wear a miniskirt and expect to be addressed as and treated as ‘special’ female (but not actual female because if they were no one would pay them any attention).

Now who is being stereotyped?

I am similar to you but don't see myself as non confirming OR non complying. I wasn't brought up to feel that way. I am just me.

Exactly.

Sex is biological and fixed.

Gender is a set of culturally and historically specific stereotypes

I'm not especially fond of the gender non-conforming label either. i can understand it's an easy descriptor for someone who doesn't "fall into gender stereotypes" but i don't like it because 1. it seems to assume people "fall into gender stereotypes", and they do it on purpose. 2. people who don't "fall into gender stereotypes" also somehow do it on purpose. According to the internet, I should be a lesbian! (short hair, no idea about make up). Honestly who falls into a stereotype 100%? People are people, each as unique as everyone else. As long as we understand that, we don't need labels and increase our tolerance. Labels seem to just decrease tolerance or flexible thinking! That said, I think it's still useful tool to describe things and unless someone thinks of anything better that's what we have. Like saying "starfish" vs "seastars"... I still use starfish.. it's not meant to be offensive....

I’ve decided to be non-binary AND gender-fluid just to mess with their heads.

Am also much younger looking than my years, so that’s people already flustered when they think I’m the girlfriend of my son.
My DH, who now is by default queer poor sod, has long gotten suspicious glances when we’ve been out. Despite there not being an actual age gap, but quite clearly an imaginary one.
So with me being out n proud nb gf, and impossible to reliably date, this should be an interesting few years ahead of us.

I can also read Maps and park in small spaces with the biggest of vans.

One can but hope it will all end well, and that I avoid genocide and/or misgendering in the time to come.