Bad women

[froginawell]

Has anyone listened to this podcast? It's around the victims of Jack the Ripper, and the idea of ' the least dead'

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0h0qwhc?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Quite shocking listening to the detective getting angry about being challenged around his views on prostitution...

Yes, I've listened to it.
It's done very respectfully, telling the women's life stories, not how they died. They weren't prostitutes (not that that would make it ok, of course) but it tells the story of how quickly women could fall from safe respectability.
And the 'ripperologist' seemed raging!

Thanks. I stumbled across it on Sounds but thought it might be expoiltative. I'll give it a go.

Its Hallie Rubenfeld a feminist academic who wrote "The Five" a social history of the lives of the victims focussing entirely on the lives of the women in the Victorian era rather than the crimes. Totally recommend the book I listened to it on audible.

Weirdly she got alot of abuse from men invested in "the Ripper" myth which is both depressing and disturbing.

There is a book called The Five, by Hallie Rubenhold about 5 women murdered by Jack the Ripper.

It gives a lot of historical context, and the stories of the women’s lives are very interesting.

Its terribly sad, though, because you know that they ended up being murdered.

The book is all about the women he murdered - there is no speculation about who he was; nothing about him at all, really.

Yes, I’ve listened to this and the subsequent series about the “Blackout Ripper”. They’re very good and I’d recommend them along with “The Five”, Reubenhold’s book about the five canonical victims of “Jack the Ripper”.

And it was bloody depressing to hear that nasty little shred of a man saying “Well, they were out at night, so we all know what type of women they were” when challenged on the idea that the five women were prostitutes*. God help any women who turned to him for help when he was a serving officer. Just as sad is the abuse Hallie has received, even though she’s an actual historian and academic, as opposed to these armchair misogynists. I should imagine her being more qualified to comment than them absolutely incenses them.

(* Three of the women were not prostitutes. One had been involved in the sex trade, in her native Sweden, but was not a prostitute when she was in London, IIRC. Another had been involved in prostitution but wasn’t “working” when she was murdered. In fact four of the five women were believed to have been murdered while they were sleeping)

I loved The Five. Will definitely check this out thanks.

The Five is such an excellent book. As pp said, very sad though. This man sounds vile.

Richard McCann is the son of Wilma McCann. He's overcome great tragedy in his life including the murder of his mother by Peter Sutcliffe when he was five and much later, the suicide of his very much loved sister Sonia.

He has asked the media not to refer to Peter Sutcliffe as The Yorkshire Ripper as the sensationalised name conjures up imaginable horror for the victims families especially the children of the women.

The police and the media at the time only started taking a proper interest in women being murdered in a similar fashion when in their words 'innocent' women started being killed.

In those time 'sex workers' or women perceived to be 'sex workers' were deemed less important than women who were not.

The children of Wilma McCann had to grow up not just with the sheer horror of not having a mother because she was horribly murdered but also the stigma that she was somehow less important because there were suspicions she may have been a sex worker.

In those time 'sex workers' or women perceived to be 'sex workers' were deemed less important than women who were not.

I can still remember when it was suggested that there should be a curfew for women. My DM was straightaway into the argument that it was men that should be kept off the streets after dark. A point of view that is just as valid today, I would suggest.

I got very angry with the BBC News messageboard (remember those blue boards back in the olden times?) when women were being murdered in Ipswich and they kept reporting it as 'prostitutes are being murdered'. I asked which would be more surprising, if the killer diversified and killed a woman who was not working as a prostitute, or if the killer diversified and killed a prostitute who was not a woman?

I didn't get much satisfaction at the time, but did notice an improvement in reporting later (hardly listen to the BBC these days).

Hallie Rubenhold is a brilliant historian and writer, and it is both shocking a revealing that the Jack the Ripper fandom disliked her excellent book.

And it was bloody depressing to hear that nasty little shred of a man saying “Well, they were out at night, so we all know what type of women they were” when challenged on the idea that the five women were prostitutes. God help any women who turned to him for help when he was a serving officer*

Been a while since I read The Five (and echo the praise for the book) but Rubenhold dealt robustly with the claims that they were prostitutes. IIRC the reasons women would be out at night would be because they didn't have money for lodgings and had no option but to walk the streets or sleep rough.

I did a review on a blog I have with a friend

https://enoughofthistomfoolery.wordpress.com/2022/05/13/book-review-the-five-the-untold-lives-of-the-women-killed-by-jack-the-ripper-halle-rubenhold/

I'm part way through & it's really interesting as social history. I just reached the ex-police officer. 😱

Lucy Worsley's 'Lady Killers' is back for a third series, all available on BBC Sounds now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0h2rgw7