Guardian article on older women

[theDudesmummy]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/29/gender-woman-ageing-free-female-power?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Am I alone in feeling (probably irrationally) annoyed that this article was written by a 43 year old woman, whose own lived experience does not yet include ageing? I of course recognise the benefits of entering the giving zero fucks stage, but also have a myriad other experiences as a 60 year old woman which do NOT make me feel empowered or "set free". It it our society or is it the considerable pain in my back and my arthritic thumb that is creating my jaundiced view? (Light-hearted, or maybe not, really).

@IwantToRetire
ie genuinley older women (boomers and worse) cant be relied on to think correctly and of course as the paper of intellectual elites the idea that personal experiences could be valid is just not acceptable, the concept must by the result of a "study".

The article may be bollox, the study may have many flaws. And I can see why, on the face of it, it seems like declaring a discovery that bears shit in the woods.

But in defence of science, this is actually how it works. Particularly in psychology. Assuming something is self-evidently true can lead to ingrained misunderstandings and completely overlook important things. If an apparent phenomenon is noted, it's important to actually study it to have hard evidence to say "this is what happens", and why, and to what extent. The fact that it's being studied at all means its already been noticed on an anecdotal level. And that someone considers it worthy of funding, which is a small win.

I read that post three times and still have no idea. Must be my differently ageing brain.

Oh. I spent my career peak years bringing up small kids. This explains quite a lot.

It did appear on my news feed, could just about bear to skim it.
I like the sculpture tho.

That depends on thinking psychology is a science rather than a manifestation of currently fashionable trick'o'the loop-ery. See also sociology.

I think she is telling herself a story to feel better about getting older. There are some advantages maybe to getting older - at work I am less anxious - but for me the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. The joint aches in particular.

I do hate when women jokingly refer to themselves as old women in a self depreciating way.

Ok, have done due diligence now and read it. It's more of an opinion piece, with some historical/anthropolgical perspective. A view into another time and place and what that might possibly tell.

The writer is only forty three, which is ancient to a twenty year old, but mere babe in the woods to those ten or more years older.

So it kind of falls between two stools, pompous and ' I am telling you' to the twenty year olds and risibly precocious and naive to the post menopausal.

But maybe it's perfect for an early forties female readership, trying to talk and write yourself into a positive mindset for the challenging times ahead and fiercely latching onto a positive role model in the guise of a wee naked figurine book ended by big cats.

i have been taken on to do a role at a company with mostly young and very young (mostly graduates) because of how ancient i am. I have seen it all in an office/project manager sense, and i bring a LOT of experience, despite the industry being very high-tech and i am not excellent at the details, and it is amazing (to me) how much i really do bring to the role/company.

The winter says she 'can feel my youth slipping away, and with it also the features that make me recognisably female. For the first time, I wonder how easy it would be to distinguish older men from older women if people didn’t put in all this work.' - by work she refers to dying her hair and using lipstick.

don't worry, ducky, you won’t suddenly grow six inches, you won’t develop a heavy brow ridge or a larger jaw, your hands and feet won’t double in size, you won’t grow an Adam’s apple, your voice won’t plummet….unfortunately (perhaps) your pelvic girdle won’t shrink and your breasts won’t retract into your rib cage, while your shoulders expand. In fact you will still be instantly recognisable as an adult human female, albeit a well used one.

🫣do people like the ‘author’ walk about with their eyes shut? How do they cross the road safely?

'. Even the height difference between the sexes was slight – a reminder that biological sex differences can be profoundly affected by our social circumstances'

The fuck how?! That's the most nonsensical sentence I've read today. How the hell does she come to the conclusion that people's heights were affected by social circumstances?!

So many qualifications so little sense.

Older women are also much less likely than older men to be bald. Some of the young seem terribly unobservant.

Still not tempted to read it.

I suspect she's reached that age - usually around 40, when men have stopped paying her so much attention, or even noticing her; they fancy younger women. Plus, if she's not had children, then that other female function ( apart from being sexually available and attractive which is the one I reckon she identifies with most) is soon to be lost to her.

When you get to your early 40's - certainly if you've been considered attractive or beautiful in your youth - can be a very challenging time - even if you have fulfilled your potential in other ways. You don't realise how central some things are until they are no longer there anymore.

With age comes a gradual letting go and releasing of attachments to many things, and the development a more philosophical outlook, forged through hard times, crisis and pain. You learn not to attach your worth as a human being and as a female human being to those things that are slipping away. You still remain a female person though - with a life time of experiences related to that fact.

''The older you get, the harder it becomes to maintain the stereotypical appearance of femininity (or masculinity). I need lipstick now, where I found I didn’t need it before. It takes conscious effort to keep my hair soft, shiny, the same colour it used to be, and to keep my skin from sagging. I can feel my youth slipping away, and with it also the features that make me recognisably female. For the first time, I wonder how easy it would be to distinguish older men from older women if people didn’t put in all this work.''

What has happened to the Guardian? in the last few years it really has gone from being a respected newspaper with good journalists to an absolute mess...

Another lightweight, puff piece which should have been published.

There is so much stupidity displayed in one single paragraph (quoted above) that it really hard to even know where to start.

Nobody ''needs'' lipstick and women don't turn into men as they age. Being a woman does not rely on wearing make up or having shiny hair...

And why would you want to 'maintain the stereotypical appearance of feminity'?

Same has happened to Radio 4.

Oner thing you do realise as you get older is that each generation never really learns from the last one. Each new generation has to go through the same experiences as all the other generations before them.

It is the nature of youth to believe that nobody before has realised, experienced or thought those kinds of thoughts before. To be young is to see yourself as a pioneer, or an originator. But with age you realise that there is nothing really new ever; and that the patterns keep repeating, and that the same human milestones present themselves as if brand new or novel occurences, as they always have.

Those women now writing in the Guardian or talking on 'Woman's Hour' about their first child, or their experience of the loss of male attention, or of the menopause, or of how nobody really ever gives a break to older people have yet to realise this.

I only went to look at the sculpture. Which is cool. Read it by accident.

It’s probably just a clay toy, not a Goddess given it’s size.

It is also 8,000yrs old not 9,000yrs old, but then it’s an opinion article so people can get away with writing nonsense and playing loosey goosey with facts. I did find the article irritating as well.

The problem with archaeology is that it isn’t the most precious things that survive millennia, it is the most durable and lucky, some of which like gold jewelry do happen to survive.

There are no records or even oral history from that time period, so we literally have no idea as to the status of women, young or old. I for one, do not ascribe to the matriarchy fertility Goddess noble savages all living in peace, harmony, and egality hypotheses that abound.

They seem more garden of Eden wishfulness than grounded in any known history.

Unfortunately there are societies - probably quite a lot - in which men and boys get the lions share of the food. Which with our current western excess doesn't matter (other than annoyance) but if resources are scarce then women may be more likely to be malnourished. This is the sort of example where 'gender' in its proper meaning can matter (difference due to inequitable treatment of one sex rather than inherent difference).

But of course it may be that in populations where men and women are more similar in size and strength to others, then the 'gendered' societal differences may also be reduced.

Those women now writing in the Guardian or talking on 'Woman's Hour' about their first child, or their experience of the loss of male attention, or of the menopause, or of how nobody really ever gives a break to older people have yet to realise this.

This, so much. I remember my daughter enthusing about Caitlin's Moran "How to be a Woman" as though "rebellion" against supposed stereotypes for women (like dying your hair pink or wearing Doc Martins, wow) was some sort of groundbreaking uber feminist stuff. It annoyed me intensely. Like this article did.

She's 43 and she's identifying as an older woman? The fucking cheek of it. I suppose its up to her if she wants to waste the fag end of her youth cosplaying as an old lady.
I read that article and just presumed the writer was 65 plus. There's been a slew of these 'Its great I am old and invisible to men now' articles in the Guardian. It's so cliched and boring

@DeclineandFall precisely! I got some snarky and wilfully misunderstanding comments at the beginning of this thread about how of course she was "ageing" (cos we all are, aye, ok, very clever). I have no intention of being all "woe is me" about it, but come off it 43-year olds! Enjoy that golden time: some wisdom, no longer insecure, care less about what people think, but still vibrant, sexy and with functioning joints...it doesn't last forever. Come back at 60.

odd that you dismissed an article about feeling invisible in society when in late fifties as nonsense Its just cliched journalism you said.

and yet here you are talking about the seeming abyss between a -a very dull woman aged 43 and you as a 60 year old woman.

There was a book back in the 60s written (natch) by a man about the menopause. Robert something. This was the sort of thing that he came out with, and the hatred and contempt for middle aged and elderly women who he reckoned turned into men after menopause just dripped off the page. I mean, what a load of horseshit the above is. I'm nearly 70, still recognisably female (even without lipstick), as are the women the same age as me and older I see every day.

No-one is going to ever mistake me for a man.

I've was once called 'Sir' by an absent minded shop assistant but that was because I was buying the Times and according to her, it was usually men who bought that. I told her I'd ask the DH to explain the long words.