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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

The Evolution of the manipulation of language

18 replies

WarriorN · 27/12/2023 20:22

With Linguistics professor, scholar, and author Dr. Alaric Naudé

I've only caught the snippet of this on Twitter about pronouns, but it was fascinating.

Especially, as he describes, that vikings brought the current structure into English and they were more egalitarian about the sexes. Prior to that sexes pronouns were much more complicated as they were hierarchical in structure depending on relationships and who was speaking. Which I find ironic as it feels the array of pronouns today is a new hierarchical tool to bash people with in EDI training.

The question posed was around how TRAs suggest language changes all the time, get over it, when actually it doesn't. Because semantics matter.

x.com/zaelefty/status/1739798207528313270?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

OP posts:
Original poster
WarriorN · 27/12/2023 20:24

One of his books is called: "The modern narcissism of queer theory..."

OP posts:
CuriousAlien · 28/12/2023 09:25

That is incredibly interesting, thanks for posting.

It makes me think again about my attitude to using requested pronouns. I've swung a bit each way in the past but now I think I'm happy with they but won't use any pronoun that feels like I am enacting some kind of transaction or denying biology.

What did you think about the bit about the percentage of population it takes to have influence? Was it 6 or 7%? I found that rang true.

CuriousAlien · 28/12/2023 09:26

Oh also the book is modern gnosticism, not narcissism

Original poster
WarriorN · 28/12/2023 11:26

Ooh thanks, sounded like narcissism

I haven't finished; I feel the impact of gender stereotypes is glossed over rather in his analysis of sex differences in linguistics.

Certainly boys are more likely than girls to struggle with early speech and communication delays in my experience.

OP posts:
Original poster
WarriorN · 28/12/2023 11:29

I have problems with they from a speech and language perspective!

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Villagetoraiseachild · 28/12/2023 11:31

Thanks Op, saving for later. Semantics do indeed matter, massively so!

CuriousAlien · 28/12/2023 11:37

Yes I can understand that. Do you speak any other languages? I definitely find it helpful speaking other languages where there is no he/she pronoun. And a move to they is a sort of simplification, though obviously you lose sex information and confuse singular and plural. But English "you" can be both plural and singular, formal and informal so I don't have a problem with a third person pronoun working the same way. But as the speaker in the video said, you run the risk of the person listening not knowing the new usage and being unable to decode it.
Yes the impact of gender stereotypes was more or less absent. I think that is why people can get confused about gender critical ideas. Because so much time is having to be spent saying sex is binary and matters, the more complex relationship between biology and socialisation gets unspoken. And the massive variation within the sexes gets reduced to "of course we are talking about averages"

stealtheatingtunnocks · 28/12/2023 11:51

Thanks. I’d love Susie Dench to say something about this stuff. That’d peak a few

GrumpyPanda · 28/12/2023 11:58

Speaking of gnosticism and queer theory, this seems apropos. On my phone so haven't followed this up yet, but researchgate lets you request a pdf.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241644526_Gnostically_Queer_Gender_Trouble_in_Gnosticism

MrGHardy · 28/12/2023 12:00

Yes, it is hilarious to see people from genderless languages start using English pronouns because their own language does not have them.

CuriousAlien · 28/12/2023 14:49

This opinion (link below) is interesting and seems quite common. Yes language changes, yes some people don't like pronouns changing because they are small c conservative or want old fashioned gender conformity.

But it completely misses the point that enforced language change is not the same as organic change (even though it acknowledges the previous issues with new pronouns not sticking). Or that compelled speech might be issue. Or that forced language change might be confusing. Or that pronouns are not the only language being changed.

https://www.rowanglassworks.org/opinion/stop-hating-on-they-language-evolution-and-gender-pronouns

turbonerd · 28/12/2023 16:41

CuriousAlien · 28/12/2023 11:37

Yes I can understand that. Do you speak any other languages? I definitely find it helpful speaking other languages where there is no he/she pronoun. And a move to they is a sort of simplification, though obviously you lose sex information and confuse singular and plural. But English "you" can be both plural and singular, formal and informal so I don't have a problem with a third person pronoun working the same way. But as the speaker in the video said, you run the risk of the person listening not knowing the new usage and being unable to decode it.
Yes the impact of gender stereotypes was more or less absent. I think that is why people can get confused about gender critical ideas. Because so much time is having to be spent saying sex is binary and matters, the more complex relationship between biology and socialisation gets unspoken. And the massive variation within the sexes gets reduced to "of course we are talking about averages"

Edited

Which languages are those?

CuriousAlien · 28/12/2023 17:29

@turbonerd For languages where third person singular pronouns can be without gender I think Korean is mentioned in the video and I was thinking of Hungarian. I'm definitely not an expert, just that I think learning languages is a good way to broaden a sense of what language can be.

MsGoodenough · 28/12/2023 17:29

I know Chinese languages don't have sex differentiated pronouns. Not sure if there are others. A lot of Chinese students I have taught have confused he and she as they are learning English.

turbonerd · 28/12/2023 17:58

CuriousAlien · 28/12/2023 17:29

@turbonerd For languages where third person singular pronouns can be without gender I think Korean is mentioned in the video and I was thinking of Hungarian. I'm definitely not an expert, just that I think learning languages is a good way to broaden a sense of what language can be.

That is very interesting. I will check out Hungarian on Duolingo 😊
I have started on Chinese but am moving at a snail’s pace.

My language, and the other germanic and latin languages I know all have gendered nouns (2 or 3) and many have verbs and possessives tied up with the sex of the person you are talking about.

English singular/plural YOU is most annoying; I wish thou could make a come back!

Will now watch the video and try to comment on the actual thread in a bit 😬

nepeta · 28/12/2023 18:04

MsGoodenough · 28/12/2023 17:29

I know Chinese languages don't have sex differentiated pronouns. Not sure if there are others. A lot of Chinese students I have taught have confused he and she as they are learning English.

Finnish and Estonian also don't have sexed third person singular pronouns.

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