Advice in school trips and loos…

[KittenKong]

I am helping to organise a kids club trip and have been advised that some in the group (of early teens) may require ‘gender neutral’ loos and changing areas.

The venue doesn’t have these and I assume it will have safeguarding measures in place so that we don’t have girls in the men’s loos and vice versa.

So if girls demand to use the mens, the venue would need to shoo out the men as they’d not want their staff to be placed in a situation when they are changing/peeing infront of 13 year old girls ffs.

What’s the legal situation here? I want to tell them ‘tough, these spaces are sex-based and therefore opposite sexed using them will be breaking safeguarding regulations like crazy’. Ideally I want to have the legal facts up my sleeve in case we have some pushback on ‘gender’ basis.

Any ideas?

Disabled toilets?

They have one ‘accessible’ loo (for access and breastfeeding/baby changing). It’s just not fair to use this facility when there are people who need it!

I think really you should talk to the venue about this and establish what they are able and willing to do before you go back to the kids and their parents with a firm position on this.

Are the kids a mixed group or all girls?

If the venue has single sex toilets/changing rooms then the girl is told tough and has to use the female facilities end of.
If the venue has single gender toilets/changing facilities then she could in theory use the men's with the men noone would tell them to leave or make them.
You have to make a decision about what safeguarding risks you're willing to take with these girls and what permission you will need to get from the parents. Personally I would change venue to 1 with a changing village or enforce single sex segregation due to the safeguarding risks involved

Oh and legally as they are under 18 they don't GRCs so are not entitled to the presumption of access to the opposite sex facilities (as per the judgment in fws latest crt case)

As above, no GRCs. If gender neutral facilities are not provided then they need to use sex based ones. I also think it's a good thing for kids to realise that there are practical limits to how far their gender expression can go in terms of impacting others. It is a choice, not a need.

None of them needs gender neutral facilities. None. They use the facilities of their birth sex. Don't get drawn into it. Venue would have a massive safeguarding fail (as would you) by allowing males into female facilities, and vice versa.

In fact you could argue that by using the facilities of their birth sex, they are using gender neutral facilities

While I agree with the above posters, it will be easier for the OP if she can "blame the venue". If she can say she's asked the venue about this and unfortunately they can't accommodate it, she will probably get less flack from the families concerned.

It would be helpful to know whether we are talking about girls or boys or both, and how many of them, and also whether the request for gender neutral facilities just means some students identify as non binary or whether there are going to be boys wanting to use the girls' facilities as well.

Girls and some potentially ‘not identifying as…’.

It’s making my eye twitch to be honest and from a safeguarding point of view…. I have pointed out that the facilities appear to be ‘sex based’ and that the venue will have responsibilities for safeguarding and their own staff/other pupils.

I can’t believe that adults are actually entertaining this twaddle.

So all of them are girls?

Will they be sharing changing/toilet facilities with other users of the venue at the same time?

Yes all actual girls… and there will be other students and staff in the venue, using the facilities.

I am not comfortable with the prospect of girls using men’s loos and changing areas (and not impressed that those running the club/parents are asking for this). It can’t be legal…

I can guarantee that 13 year old girls who don’t identify as such would run a mile if they had to use public toilets that men use - stinky, pee on the seats, men at urinals. Not at all pleasant! Especially if there were actual men using the actual toilets at the same time.

Invoke safeguarding and stick to single sex rules. That is technically gender neutral.

Ah, it's a shame the school doesn't have its own designated facilities otherwise you could just ask the venue to put a sign over the girls' changing room door saying "gender neutral".

I'd be really tempted to say, with a straight face, "I have consulted the venue and they have kindly explained that the female toilets are gender neutral. They are for people assigned female at birth of any gender identity, so thankfully they are already inclusive of all of our students and safe for them to use."

They can use disabled loos. Separate from gendered loos.

No, disabled loos are for disabled people.

I'd just say that the venue doesn't have gender neutral facilities and you don't have the capacity to facilitate and supervise the girls using different areas in any case. They will all need to use the same, sex-based facilities which are shared with other members of the public. If parents want to make alternative arrangements then they are free to do so, but you will only be able to supervise in the women's area. Because you do not identify as a man and nothing would entice you to go into the men's toilets

Allow them to use the disabled loo so no one feel uncomfortable

If this is a kids' club where all the children are girls, are we allowed to question why girls who don't identify as girls still want to participate in it?

Surely if you can participate in a girls only activity/club without causing grievous harm to your gender identity you can also use the same toilets and changing rooms as those girls?

Except the disabled person waiting outside who may be in very urgent need of an accessible toilet, you mean?

Or the baby needing changing!

I'd be really tempted to say, with a straight face, "I have consulted the venue and they have kindly explained that the female toilets are gender neutral. They are for people assigned female at birth of any gender identity, so thankfully they are already inclusive of all of our students and safe for them to use."

I'd go with this.

I have been speaking to the venue and have been pleasantly surprised - they are of a similar mindset (also regarding people using their accessible loos when they don’t need them). Phew.