Times article 100 women investigated over abortions

[Citrusandginger]

100 women and girls investigated over ‘illegal abortions’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1bec406a-867e-489f-b6e7-1a7fef7db054?shareToken=c22787400bec73c7ca91f0716b0314a0

Appalling story. It’s a hard read. A women was trying to resuscitate her premature baby was given no support by the police who were too busy “investigating” her crime.

Women really are hated. just baby carriers. Unfortunately, the article doesn’t say who is calling the police. As a HCP I sincerely hope that if any health staff are involved are dealt with by their professional bodies.

This is awful, treating women in such a despicable way. Unbelievable that they left a woman to resuscitate her baby whilst they searched her home.

This is terrible and very sinister.

Until there was publicity about some of these cases I didn't fully understand that abortion remains a crime in the U.K. , the abortion law of 1967 allowed legal abortion under certain circumstances but it did not make abortion completely legal. It's time the law was updated and abortion decriminalised.
I'm shocked that NHS staff appear to be treating women with suspicion and reporting them to police.

"Dr Jonathan Lord, co-chairman of the British Society of Abortion Care Providers (BSACP) and a consultant gynaecologist, said he was aware of at least 100 cases of women being investigated by police since 2020 and warned that the numbers were rising.
“We are seeing women who are being entrapped and investigated following a pregnancy loss. It’s absolutely devastating,” he said. “Anybody who loses a pregnancy has all kinds of wretched feelings. But then to have NHS staff say they suspect you of causing it, and the police called to investigate it as a crime — it is life-destroying.”"

Reading about some of these investigations and prosecutions made me wonder about what happened pre 1967. There are plenty of accounts of illegal abortions and the terrible toll they took on women's health, but I wonder, were women who survived haemorrhage/ infection etc then routinely reported to police and prosecuted pre 1967?
I know there were investigations and prosecutions of the back street abortionists who performed the procedures, but were women, perhaps living in slum conditions with a batch of children already who were driven to desperate measures then prosecuted and potentially imprisoned leaving the children without a mother to care for them? My historical knowledge around this is clearly sketchy.

It's a scary thought isn't it?

But this isn't even just abortions, what if it stops women suffering miscarriage from seeking medical support as well?

Women really are fucked.

@FannyCann It's time the law was updated and abortion decriminalised

It's possible for a baby to survive if born at 24 weeks. If a woman wants an early abortion (before the current limit) then fine, but I don't agree with women aborting a healthy pregnancy in the later stages. She'd have to give birth anyway if she had a late abortion. I'd hope that an obstetrician or coroner would be able to determine whether a baby was a miscarriage or abortion. Must be distressing for women who have had miscarriages though.

Why no ambulance?

A miscarriage is an abortion, a spontaneous one. Miscarriage is a euphemism. Anyway, I have had two nasty miscarriages, and neither were investigated by anyone but my doctors who wanted to determine the cause. However, then it was impossible to buy abortion pills over the counter courtesy of the BPAC, which has a history of not investigating requests (e.g. woman who aborted a 32/34 week pregnancy). I am not sure what to say about the derogation of duty by police officers who did not call an ambulance and assist in resuscitating a baby except that the mother should make a formal complaint about them.
To decriminalize abortion may be a good idea but there still has to be a limit on aborting a healthy pregnancy. Late term abortions are carried out for death of the baby, catastrophic malformation which will result in death before or very soon after birth (and causing a distressing death of the baby for the parents to witness), or are not abortions but early deliveries because of the danger to the mother's health e.g. need for cancer treatment. All that is fine. What is not fine is women aborting themselves of late pregnancies and endangering their own and their child's life.

Yes I am aware that miscarriages are 'spontaneous abortions.' However, surely an obstetrician would be able to rule out the cause? As in whether it was intentional? I think I remember reading about that woman who aborted a healthy baby at 30+ weeks. I don't think late term abortion should be allowed unless there's something wrong with the baby.

@Grammarnut

"Late-term abortion" is a right-wing propaganda term and doesn't exist in reality since the pregnancy would have to be overdue at that point.

What if there is something wrong with the mother?

Not meaning to be patronising, sorry. No-one ever worked out why I lost two pregnancies at 3 months and probably two earlier. But my aunt was unable to have children and my mother is Rhesus negative (though I am not), which might have been factors. I don't think it is that easy to spot a homemade abortion, but my situation was not one that any obstetrician would suspect. Early deliveries are carried out (28 weeks+) if the mother needs an invasive treatment, afaik.

Really sorry to hear about the miscarriages. I can emphasise with you on that, unfortunately. I've heard miscarriage risk is higher in the first trimester so I don't think doctors investigate. I'm talking about later stage abortions. I'm sure a professional would find out if a woman took abortion pills to trigger an abortion.

When I talk of decriminalisation of abortion that doesn't mean without limit. I would never support abortion on demand up to term.

I'm not aware that induction of an intrauterine death/still birth is classified as an abortion. Inducing/delivering early for the mother's health eg severe pre-eclampsia or cancer is perfectly legal and in the context of a wanted baby how is this abortion? Every effort would be made to save the life of the baby as well. 24/40 babies can and do survive and before that of course survival is unlikely but that is within the legal limit for abortion.
I do have concerns regarding late termination for fetal abnormality and how that is interpreted as it could include eg Down's syndrome or cleft lip that has been diagnosed later in and the parents do not want despite the baby being perfectly viable.

There were bound to be problems with the prescribing of medical abortions without a face to face consultation and ultrasound scan to confirm gestation and perhaps there's a good argument for stopping this - during covid obviously it was difficult for women to attend and some women will always have problems around attending hospital appointments for various reasons but a later medical abortion can be risky for health reasons apart from the legal issues and many women will be unsure of dates or the gestation turns out to be different to what the woman thought so there are certainly good arguments to go back to restricting provision of medical abortions at home.

Unfortunately this article is conflating a number of issues - both showing inhumane treatment of women but also highlighting that there IS an issue of misuse of abortion pills in late stage pregnancy. It's poor reporting unfortunately as most people would agree these are different circumstances unless you personally believe in abortion at any stage of pregnancy, which isn't a popular opinion. Police are legally required to attend and investigate deaths of anyone at any age that occur unexpectedly in the home. This doesn't mean I'm excusing any of the inhumane behaviour documented in the article as a women procuring an illegal late stage abortion is likely to be in a fragile and vulnerable state.

As someone born with a cleft palette, I agree about abortion for disability. If the disability will kill the child immediately or soon after birth, or is incompatible with life (like anencephaly) then a late-term abortion is a better solution (a baby with anencephaly was born to a friend and she was totally traumatized because the condition had not been diagnosed).

Abortion is a medical term, it doesn't imply that anything is illegal or unethical in itself. The same word is used for example in veterinary science. Things that are abortions, medically, aren't going to be reclassified because that is the correct term.

That's medical language, in everyday speech we tend to use it for human-induced abortion, and miscarriage for when it's not. Including in medical settings when people are just talking rather than recording with technical terms.

All of which is fine and not hard to understand as long as you know which are being used.

Most people don't support complete decriminalization or legalization of abortion at every stage, and feel there are other issues that need to be balanced around the rights of the human fetus, and also there are questions of safety and good medical practice for the mother.

The UK already has quite liberal abortion laws compared to most of Europe. It's probably always going to be very sensitive to investigate and manage situations where they may have been breached, but it does happen.

surely an obstetrician would be able to rule out the cause?

I'm sure a professional would find out if a woman took abortion pills to trigger an abortion.

No. Depends on method, but an induced abortion can be difficult or impossible to detect with any degree of certainty. And an obstetrician is not - and should not be - a detective in the criminal sense.

A doctor carrying out investigations without a medical reason is beyond their remit and damages patient trust. Not just for that patient but for all - it means women experiencing pregnancy complications are less likely to seek help.

The cases described at the end of the article are truly chilling. The police asking for the names of all women who sought advice about abortion but then didn't continue to engage with BPAS, or who were scanned as past the 24 week limit?? Just, no. The idea that the police might turn up and demand to interview you because you once enquired about abortions??

And goodness knows what those 7 police officers thought they were doing, when a mother was trying to save her baby's life and they were searching her bins!

This particular case really terrifies me:

"In 2021 a woman was admitted to hospital in need of a surgical procedure after a stillbirth at 24 weeks as a result of abortion care sought within the formal healthcare system. While on the ward post-procedure, she was arrested and kept in a police cell for 36 hours without medical care."

She was arrested on the post-surgical ward and kept in a police cell for 36 hours with no medical care. What the absolute fuck? Will any police officers face any misconduct disciplinary action over this? No doubt there will no comeback or review of process over any of this. The spokesman for the National Police Chiefs’ Council seems to be passing the buck to medical professionals being the ones who initiate investigations.

It's possible for SOME babies to survive if born at 24 weeks, ALBEIT WITH SIGNIFICANT SENSORY, PHYSICAL AND COGNITIVE ISSUES

Fixed that for you

How often is this happening tho? How often does a woman past 24 week's abort a child at "home" that has no life affecting medical needs that would be covered by a TFMR?

This isn't even about the coroner raising concern, "Seven police officers arrived at the home of a woman who had called an ambulance when her baby was born prematurely, about 18 months ago. They searched her bins and provided no assistance while she performed mouth-to-mouth on her unconscious child, who was still attached to her placenta by umbilical cord. Mother and baby survived*
Seven officers on the back of a "help I'm in premature labour" arrived to ignore attempts to keep the supposedly nearly murdered baby alive. They didn't come to help the baby. And who the fuck even called them?
Oh, lady on the line claims she's in prem labour. I bet she tried to kill it and failed. Better call the police!!

But they aren't required to attend every miscarriage after 10 weeks, or every premature birth. I had a prem baby that needed rescuing from the emergency exit but had he done vaginally and is had a short labour/ been sent home until I was further along and had not delivered in a hospital, he's have died. Today is possible that is have had the police in my doorstep searching for abortion meds to see if it's killed him. That's not Progress

60% of babies will survive at 24 weeks with a substantial risk of disability some of which will be significant. Many however will either have either no disability or minor ones.

For surviving babies born before 26 weeks (so 22-25) about half have right no disability (needing glasses etc).

Not quite as bleak as you suggest

again ,we shouldn't be conflating a miscarriage with a still birth at home after 24 weeks. That doesn't excuse abuses of what should be a clear & compassionate process but sadly some women (or their partners/family) may have criminal responsibility for the death and also in cases of unexpected death, the police are representing the coroner at this stage. www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/ber/bereavement/

Except that from the article, it sounds like the police have been called to investigate when the situation is a pregnancy gone wrong and not an illegal termination at all. And as I've already mentioned, does there a risk that women won't seek medical advice?

Women already ask themselves if they did anything to cause miscarriage. Imagine the police going through your bins & finding incriminating packaging from unpasteurised cheese. And what about women who drink heavily before finding out they are pregnant? Where might this end?

And who is telling the police this information? I've broken patient confidentiality just once in 30+ years, and that was to tell the dvla about an alcoholic school bus driver with cardiac arrhythmias who was a tragedy waiting to happen. It doesn't happen lightly.

Are there groups, possibly religious, possibly US driven who are influencing HCP I wonder?

ambulance crews themselves have to call police if there's anything amisss, as once the police are there that releases the ambulance crew. We have had similar situations with palliative patients ,its also distressing for their families to have police attend if the police are interested in whether the patients has ended their own life or if family have assisted...i am equally sympathetic for those situations but we do have police investigations for good reasons.

Except that trust in the police is not guaranteed nor should it be assumed. I'd be fucking terrified if I'd had a miscarriage and the police arrived to search my bins and seize my phone/devices for evidence it wasn't a natural occurrence. I'm perimenopausal, my periods are not at all regular. It's entirely possible that I could be incorrect about how far along any unwanted pregnancy I might be, if I were unlucky enough to be in that situation. So I'd be immediately suspected of nefarious intent?

Do paramedics always call the police when they attend a miscarriage??