Children's Mental Health

[MalagaNights]

This isn't specifically about gender but related.

I observe, from GC people and not just TRAs, that ideas such as: children wearing whichever uniform they want at school, and changing names, is all 'fine', as long as (for the GC) you don't tell them they are the opposite sex.

I think this is a mistake. A really big mistake.

I think this is part of a broader idea that has taken hold and that often seems shared by GC and TRAs: that children should be allowed to express themselves freely at all times. Or that supression of free expression is harmsful.

And, I think this idea itself is damaging children & partly responsible for the child mental health crisis beyonf the trans kids.

It is part of a wider view that children need to discover themselves, and this must be respected and expressed once discovered. And that any supression of this self expression is damaging.

This in itself conveys to children that time and energy spent on this level of self absorption and rumination is important and valued. That their idnetity (even if not gender identity) is something internal to be found and should be given extensive consideration and expressed.

And that it is so imporatnt and valuable that adults must respect it and they must be allowed to transgress any norms(becuase the norms have no value or point anyway?)

This level of self absorption is anxiety. It creates mental instability.

It is much healthier for children to have to learn and then accept: there are boundaries and rules. Some around the sex you are. You cannot just trangress the boundary just becuase you feel like it. In some situations you just have to conform.

You don't have to know the reasons for the rule, you don't have to agree with the rule, but while there is a rule it applies to you and everyone else.
When the rule chnages we'll tell you.

You are not harmed but not changing your name. You are not harmed by having to wear trousers to school.

But you can be harmed by thinking you have to make decisions about how to express your true self through your name and clothes and that this must be allowed or you are dangerously supressed. That idea is harming kids.

Yes this is constaining, but it is also freeing. It frees them from endless introspection, it frees them to go and do things instead of endless hours thinking about themselves.

We create small boudaried worlds for children, where choices are limited, but this allows them to play and exlpore within the bounadaries, instaed of having to work out what they want their world to be.

As they become older their boundaries obviously expand and chnage, they can play with the boundaries in certain contexts, but they are then doing this knowing how and when to conform.

I am incresaingly seeing the wider context to the GC debate is situated within the childhood mental health crisis and that some ideas promoted as 'fine' as long as they're not 'changing sex' sit within more general ideas that are still undermining children's mental health.

Anyone else noticing this?

My Dd 17 has mental health problems.

Every specialist we’ve spoken to ( psychologist, psychiatrist, educational pyschiatrist, counsellor CAHMS, GP’s) say it’s exploded beyond recognition since Covid.

Not one of them has mentioned any trans stuff. Neither has my dd. It’s Covid that caused the adolescencent mental health explosion.

It was Covid that did for my dd

Thanks for this, that is a great analogy to what we are doing to children psychologically.

We have focussed on a terrible combination of safetyism by protecting them from any discomfort and in doing so have believed they should express themselves at all times to feel 'comfortable' in their 'identity'.

But in reality this wide open playground of unboundaried choice is terrifying to many and gives licence to others to dominate the space.

It's like an unboundaried playground where all the rides have been shut down for being too dangerous and the adults are silently watching. Of course you get lost scared kids wandering about trying to establish some order but failing as they're kids, and a few narcissistic bullies doing whatever they want because they can while the adults watch.

From our experience @ArseInTheCoOpWindow it was pretty bad before Covid. CAMHS were already over run and over -stretched. I'm sure it has got worse though.

I think this is true.
It's our concept of identity that has become so individualistic it's warped. Not just our concept of gender identity.

With the fence around the playground thing, we cannot rule out the impact of carers. If you take your child to a playground with a fence and a single gate then you can let them run free in that space as you just need to monitor the gate. But in an unbounded space you keep them closer so you can keep an eye on them and keep them safe.

It's our concept of identity that has become so individualistic it's warped. Not just our concept of gender identity.

agree with this @MalagaNights . It's everywhere though not just with kids. All about the self. The gender issue is a hook for troubled adolescents to hang their struggles on. Encouraged from all angles of course.

I'm sorry to hear that. I've heard it a lot though.
Covid accelerated and amplified what was already happening.

Kids locked away for 'safety' with time and opportunity to ruminate on themselves and their feelings. So disastrously not safe at all.

Eating disorders went up by 50%. Another inward focus on the self. Most mental health needs under the depression/ anxiety umbrella are an over preoccupation with ones own thoughts and feelings.

It was described really well by the Ed pysch who says he sees kids like my dd every day.

Covid broke the routine of going to school. So everything they’d learnt about getting up and going and mixing every day automatically was pulled from under them. Everything they known all their lives suddenly disappeared.

And now they can’t get back to the routines.

It’s Covid not trans stuff. People didn’t really care what orientation anyone was at DD’s school. Everything was accepted. It certainly isn’t causing the mental health crisis.

It’s a micron of mental health next to the megatron of Covid.

I hope things improve for your DD soon @ArseInTheCoOpWindow . Young people have been badly let down on so many fronts.

Spot on. The focus on individualism as opposed to children developing and seeing themselves as part of different groups / communities / the family is so regressive.
Being part of a sports team, a hobby group, a choir, a school class / year. Being a sister, a grandchild, a cousin, a niece / nephew and so on. This is how children discover themselves, what they learn from and what they reject at times.
Yet now they're told that the cult of self is what matters, that their identity is superficial and can change at will - and of course, no critical thinking or challenge is allowed as that's what bigots do.
It's a fast track to poor mental health.

I don't agree with changing names, your Mother and Father gave you that name, if you change it you are untethering from the family, which allows confusion and easier acess for preditors.
I don't agree that men should be able to wear women's clothing - it's an attack on the boundaries of an oppressed group of people, again causing confusion and easier access for preditors.

Occasionally mothers and fathers make very poor decisions around names though...

Some people want to untether though.

I will admit I don't have children so can only see this from the child's point of view from my own memories, but I don't see/understand the issue with using a different name as long as the official school records and register still have the correct name as on the child's birth certificate then if a child is happier being known by a different name then I don't see the issue. And for uniform surely whatever makes the child most comfortable is best?

If a child is going to go to school with a name and uniform change but bunk off and go into town every day instead if they can't then I'd prefer to see them in school. Surely in that respect that would be better for the child's mental health to be in school than wandering round town aimlessly?

The issue I have these days is the assumption that is made that if a child changes their name and whether they are wearing skirt or trousers then they must be transgender.

Its been over 35 years since I left school but even back then I went by a different name at school, only by the other children (and a couple of the teachers) but my actual name remained on the register, and I wore trousers, blazer and tie when they weren't part of the school uniform for the girls, but at least that way I was actually in school and not out of school doing illegal shit!

But then my mother was all for having no boundaries and breaking all rules so I probably don't have the best barometer for what is best for the child!

There is more than just lack of boundaries going on for kids. It is a big part of the issue but another, related issue is a lack of actual physical well being brought on from exercise/physical movement. My DS is naturally kind of nerdy and gravitates towards technology, video games and role playing board games. So I've made it a firm rule that he also has to do regular sports. When he was younger he was never that into team sports, so he swims, dances and skates. A mixture of activities that means he's doing something 4-5 days a week.

@Boiledbeetle
If you don't mind me asking why did you choose to go by another name in school?
Was it a nickname that evolved or an entirely different name you chose? Was it a name more typically associated with your own sex or the opposite sex?

I live in a country where two languages are spoken. Some names are different in each language and sometimes people use both forms of their name, eg different at home and work, or different with different groups of friends. So perhaps I'm accustomed to a just a little more fluidity with regard to names.

@BuntyandJackie originally because I couldn't pronounce my own name properly! So I ended up with two names different from my actual name, one at home that I chose, (knew I was in trouble if I was called my actual name) and at school something different that could be either sex that I was already being called by children prior to school age, so nickname adjacent lets say!

And both of the names that are not my name won't tell you the sex of the person it belongs to!

I obviously rebelled early in life!

And then my gran used to call me something completely different again that only she called me!

I don't think as a family we were particularly attached to our actual first names though! One of my parents was known by a different name to their own in high school. Various family members that I knew by one name my entire life would turn out to have a completely different name when I went to the funeral!

Thanks for the reply @Boiledbeetle.
You've lots of names so!
I'm a bit the same. I have about 3 short versions that different groups of people use. It somehow evolved that way. I've never introduced myself by anything other than my given name.

Various family members that I knew by one name my entire life would turn out to have a completely different name when I went to the funeral!

Yes, that's reasonably common where I am too, especially among older people actually.

About the name thing:

It's been common enough for teens especially to have nicknames among themselves. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that should be quashed. Even if you want to call yourself something silly like "Sting" or "The Edge".

But generally adults, particularly parents or teachers, were not expected to adopt that kind of nickname, and were probably bemusedly indifferent, or even just indifferent. So it wasn't a way to get adult attention or control people or anything like that.

And most people dropped these names as adults, unless they were rock stars, and didn't insist others use them, unless they were Sting and a bit of a twit, and didn't go to the trouble of legally changing them either.

Even by the late teens a lot of kids are realizing things like clothes and names aren't that important, aren't who they "really are." But we are now telling them the opposite of that.

I think there is a culture of introspection and obsession with self, particularly among girls. Likes and follows on Tik tok and instagram seem to be very, very important. Anxiety about not measuring up/ changing image is a constant theme among many young women I know. I think it creates a lot of stress.

Yeah completely agree OP, when it comes to children you loosen the boundaries around them slowly, any child with no boundaries becomes untethered and anxious. Personally I think a school saying “tough shit, this is your uniform and this is your name” would actually be a relief to some teens (with the caveat that I think if the school uniform includes skirts there shouldn’t be a problem with boys wearing them, they are just clothes). Bit like Obama and his two colour ties and tech bros and the white t-shirt and jeans thing. Taking the choice off the table in some places removes the mental load of decision making for kids, no-one feels they have to express themselves or make a decision about who they are publicly where it’s very hard to row back from it.

There was a thread on here once about someone who had their child fill in a diary every night examining their feelings. As someone who’s been treated for anxiety and depression I thought encouraging that level of constantly checking in and magnifying feelings was going to be extremely damaging. What would have been slight discomfort that passes was now to be raked over and ruminated on.

I think it’s healthy to be able to identify what you are feeling accurately “I’m jealous, I’m angry, I’m embarrassed”. But the narcissism of identity is somethIng to behold. It involves persistent self interrogation an elevation of “identity” above all else, what becomes important is not what you do and how you behave but what you think you are. I loathe it all, as an ethnic minority woman I’ve found identity politics to actually be extremely restrictive which is the exact opposite of what proponents claim.

The only place my DD is actually called by her actual name is in school, she has 3 that we use in our family for her. I had 2 at home and 1 with friends and then my actual name, no-one in my family uses my given name either. It’s totally normal in some cultures, the names are usually from childhood and are like terms of endearment.