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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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6
PriOn1 · 30/11/2023 21:28

A friend in the industry told me that it’s nearly impossible to sell books that don’t fit perfectly into one of the genre moulds and especially unlikely if you don’t tick some diversity box or other. In the meantime, “celebrity transitioners” with nothing of interest to say are having cash thrown at them. I just wish the industry would start to think about quality again and not diversity at the expense of everything else.

I just want my book published. It’s genuinely painful to have watched my agent try so hard without success.

RedToothBrush · 30/11/2023 21:56

Invisible Women - that was a smash hit seller

Time to Think - Shortlisted for The Baillie Gifford Prize for Non-Fiction 2023 soon to be out in paperback so must be doing reasonably well for sales. There was a story in the guardian about Waterstones 'not stocking it' - when actually it sounds like demand was higher than they'd bought
www.theguardian.com/books/2023/mar/09/waterstones-books-hannah-barnes-victoria-smith
This also affected another book.

Funny isn't it?

Codlingmoths · 30/11/2023 22:02

Interesting, I can see the challenges in knowing what will sell, but I cannot see who thought $3 MILLION a fair payment for Elliot pages. Has any talented but not headline actor ever written anything worth that much?
I would be very cautious about criticising the decision to hire more diversity. It’s a very fair argument that black /people of colours voices are not heard and also reasonable to assume there’s a market for them, and the way to find this talent is not only to consider more widely but also to hire some people who are in that group, and the quality and diversity of books taken on should lift. They’ve clearly had additional issues, with hiring inexperienced people and being heavily agenda driven to the point they lost track of the quality issue. Refuse to take on new white male authors is a huge mistake, I can understand limiting the number to give others a voice, but refusing?? I am a reader, imagine the masterpieces we would not have had.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 30/11/2023 22:29

'while white writers must avoid writing about non-white characters or risk being accused of cultural appropriation.'

But will also be criticised for having a too-white cast of characters (see Harry Potter).

TempestTost · 30/11/2023 22:46

PriOn1 · 30/11/2023 21:28

A friend in the industry told me that it’s nearly impossible to sell books that don’t fit perfectly into one of the genre moulds and especially unlikely if you don’t tick some diversity box or other. In the meantime, “celebrity transitioners” with nothing of interest to say are having cash thrown at them. I just wish the industry would start to think about quality again and not diversity at the expense of everything else.

I just want my book published. It’s genuinely painful to have watched my agent try so hard without success.

I can understand why readers do this, tbh.

I used to read a fair bit of what might be considered literary fiction, years ago. Now, when I pick it up - usually for work - I am rarely impressed. They typically seem clever but pointless, or pretentious.

I find with good genre fiction the stories are more compelling, and the writing itself is as good or better than the literary fiction, without me being aware the whole time that this person is trying to write a Great Novel.

I don't think it's always been that way. Older literary fiction doesn't give me the same sense at all.

Solrock · 01/12/2023 09:27

Which made me think 'Why pay someone $250,000 for a novel that you are only going to print in limited numbers in one market?'

I suspect that they realise that they have a dud even before publication. Imagine it from the viewpoint of the publisher; your writer has delivered an adequate manuscript, which, for whatever reason, lacks popular appeal. You can hardly sue them to get the advance back, and editing will only get you so far. So, you create a short initial print run, in one territory, to try and offset the inevitable loss you are going to face, based upon an estimate of how many copies you are likely to sell. If it is an unexpected success, you can always print up a few more...

HoneyButterPopcorn · 01/12/2023 10:16

Book publishing is quite wokey (well the large companies) and I don’t understand why the bean counters don’t intervene. A friend worked for one of the large ones and said it was full of crybabies. And unisex loos that the young uns squeal with delight over but the older staff avoid and go to other floors.

One grown-ass man colleague went home with stress - he had overheard her on the phone telling someone of eff off (not a colleague or client) and said he felt unsafe. She is pushing 60 and 5 foot nothing. 🙄

sounds like working in a kindergarten.

Newgirls · 01/12/2023 11:25

Elliot page’s book is avail in the UK and US - there are different Amazon sites. Not saying it’s any good but just pointing out that it seems to be doing ok in the UK

ArthurbellaScott · 01/12/2023 11:46

Solrock · 01/12/2023 09:27

Which made me think 'Why pay someone $250,000 for a novel that you are only going to print in limited numbers in one market?'

I suspect that they realise that they have a dud even before publication. Imagine it from the viewpoint of the publisher; your writer has delivered an adequate manuscript, which, for whatever reason, lacks popular appeal. You can hardly sue them to get the advance back, and editing will only get you so far. So, you create a short initial print run, in one territory, to try and offset the inevitable loss you are going to face, based upon an estimate of how many copies you are likely to sell. If it is an unexpected success, you can always print up a few more...

Kinda. A large print run, with lots of reps getting it into shops, fairs, etc, may sell well enough whatever readers eventually think of it/whether they abandon it. Hype counts for an awful, awful lot.

But there are things to be done - the UK is tiny, for example, so you can have a 'bestseller' here that is next to meaningless compared to the huge US market.

Big showboat advances are usually the result of auctions. I think that's as much about dick-swinging and showing off as any idea that the book is going to be a seller.

Chersfrozenface · 01/12/2023 11:49

Newgirls · 01/12/2023 11:25

Elliot page’s book is avail in the UK and US - there are different Amazon sites. Not saying it’s any good but just pointing out that it seems to be doing ok in the UK

According to Amazon UK its ranking is 7,485 in books and 71,432 in Kindle sales.

AppleCrispMacchiato · 01/12/2023 12:11

I'm a writer (earning a living as a writer, and trad published) and I can't tell you how often I see male writers or wannabe writers ranting that the only reason they've been rejected from every publisher is because they're a white man, or because they're privately educated, white men are soooo oppressed, and "publishers are all Woke these days, they only want to publish black trans lesbians." And that's so clearly massive bollocks when you look at what actually does get published or programmed and what sells and wins awards. Statistically, being a white man MASSIVELY increases your chances of being published. Being privately educated quadruples your chance of landing a job. I have to restrain myself from saying, "Maybe the reason your book was rejected by every publisher is just because it's shit? Maybe the reason you're so convinced of your own genius and feel entitled to a book deal is because you grew up being told you were better than everyone else?" A lot of people really resent minorities taking even 1 slice of the pie because they feel entitled to the whole pie. Don't conflate that with any issues around wokeness or gender ideology. The Times is cherry picking a tiny number of books because they want to exploit gender stuff as a way to attack diversity as a concept. The vast, vast majority of books published are not "woke".

The publishing world itself is still very very elitist and almost impossible to get into unless you're white and privately educated. And there's a lot of racism in the industry, and a lot of resentment towards anything to do with "diversity" because people want publishing to continue to be the domain of white privately educated people. They might pretend to be woke but it's all very superficial and all for show. They'll happily put up a sign saying "gender neutral toilet" but they won't hire a single black person for a senior role. In my experience of working in the literary world, the most "performatively woke" people are the ones most likely to be angry if a black writer wins a writing competition over them, and immediately turn around and say "well they only won because they're black". I honestly have lost track of how many self-declared "woke" types have told me "minorities have it easy because they can just play the minority card."

It's alarming to see the failure of books about trans issues being used to attack anything to do with "diversity." Whoever said that you can't get on in the book world unless you're "diverse", I'm sorry but that's clearly such complete nonsense. I can easily believe that someone in publishing said that, but it's obviously not true. Something like 95% of trad published books are written by white writers. I actually wrote a newspaper article a few years ago about stats around gender in publishing that I had to do a lot of research for, and the publishing industry is just dire for women in every respect. It's insanely difficult to get published as a woman unless you're writing chick lit or cosy crime, and those genres are belittled and undermined (and the reason they're undermined is because they're perceived as female). Women writers are far less likely to be nominated for awards, receive substantially less media attention, more sexist media attention, and are treated more harshly by critics.

This is why diversity (genuine diversity, not performative wokeness) is crucial and shouldn't be pooh poohed. It shouldn't be the case that being black or being a woman automatically reduces your chance of getting a job or being published.

Froodwithatowel · 01/12/2023 12:15

diversity (genuine diversity, not performative wokeness) is crucial

I don't think that part can be said enough. It goes with the kindness that is cruel. The inclusion that excludes the many from everything so a few can have more choice. The welcoming of queerness that is rampantly homophobic. The feminism that is misogynist. And on, and on.

PurpleChrayne · 01/12/2023 12:19

Go woke, go broke!

DarkAcademia · 01/12/2023 12:27

Cattiwampus · 30/11/2023 15:02

Young Adult lists have done well as a growing market and it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that some of those young book-buying adults would continue with those interests, and buying habits into more mature adulthood. The question is why hasn't that happened?

Many of the young adults I know don’t read much non-fiction or biography.
They do read a lot of LGBTQ+fiction, but it’s often fantasy.
Vampires, werewolves, anngels and demons and polyamorous across the gender rainbow.
Not hardback autobiographies.

Exactly - if you look at booktok, where they’re all furiously buying books, including hardbacks, and film their videos in front of a whole wall of brightly coloured books, they’re fantasy, not supermarket autobiographies with a “could be anyone” black and white portrait photo on the cover and a big red sticker with £3 off.

Fans of Elliott Page and will probably gladly watch a 90 interview on a livestream or YouTube, but an autobiography seems quite “middle aged” as a genre, and middle aged people clearly couldn’t care less about EP’s transition journey.

Wonderwool · 01/12/2023 12:33

Which made me think 'Why pay someone $250,000 for a novel that you are only going to print in limited numbers in one market?'

Print runs are decided at the very last possible minute and are based on pre-orders and firm orders from major retailers, which also wait until the very last minute to finalise their numbers. As warehousing/printing is expensive, publishers tend to print the bare minimum, then go back to reprints if necessary, based on sales.

Advances, however, are calculated on an opaque formula along the lines of: number of books the Sales team think is realistically shiftable, plus kudos of being associated with Important New Voice, plus auction-based hysteria, plus agent hype, plus author's media profile, plus fear of not having a similar book on the list, plus profile uplift for editor/publisher, etc, etc. The first of these figures is more important in the calculation for normal writers' advances, hence UK average author advance being less than £7k. It goes out of the window when it comes to splashy Book Fair bunfights.

museumum · 01/12/2023 12:34

I know this is the feminism board but the article is not about gender identity it’s about race. The recent (slight) increase in books about and by non-white people and minority group experiences is absolutely not a bad thing!
American Dirt is on my to read pile. I did not know it was “cancelled” and I still fully intend to read it. The use of “woke” as an insult is confusing and meaningless. In the case of American dirt the “woke” publishers were not on the woke side and they (and their author) were roundly criticised for a form of cultural experience appropriation.
there are huge issues in the publishing industry but attacking those who try to diversify their portfolios is not something I can support in the name of being GC.

Codlingmoths · 01/12/2023 12:42

TempestTost · 30/11/2023 22:46

I can understand why readers do this, tbh.

I used to read a fair bit of what might be considered literary fiction, years ago. Now, when I pick it up - usually for work - I am rarely impressed. They typically seem clever but pointless, or pretentious.

I find with good genre fiction the stories are more compelling, and the writing itself is as good or better than the literary fiction, without me being aware the whole time that this person is trying to write a Great Novel.

I don't think it's always been that way. Older literary fiction doesn't give me the same sense at all.

Really? Barbara kingsolver, piranesi, Hilary mantel, (yes she’s dead but new works published in reasonably recent years) the wonderful life of Harriet lacks (a little older), and if I sat down to think hard many many others.

Barbadossunset · 01/12/2023 12:49

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · Yesterday 22:29

'while white writers must avoid writing about non-white characters or risk being accused of cultural appropriation.'
But will also be criticised for having a too-white cast of characters (see Harry Potter).

This seems insoluble. Writer cannot write about races or nationalities other than their own but they must include a multi racial cast of characters.
How are writers to deal with this? I’d be interested to hear an answer from publishers.

ArthurbellaScott · 01/12/2023 12:53

Barbadossunset · 01/12/2023 12:49

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · Yesterday 22:29

'while white writers must avoid writing about non-white characters or risk being accused of cultural appropriation.'
But will also be criticised for having a too-white cast of characters (see Harry Potter).

This seems insoluble. Writer cannot write about races or nationalities other than their own but they must include a multi racial cast of characters.
How are writers to deal with this? I’d be interested to hear an answer from publishers.

You misunderstand. The subject matter isn't the issue.

The race of the writers is the issue.

ArthurbellaScott · 01/12/2023 12:55

VIDA count used to be good on the subject of sexism/women writers. No idea if they're still doing it.

ArthurbellaScott · 01/12/2023 12:59

https://www.vidaweb.org/the-count/

Not done since 2019. I see they've widened it to include 'non binary' people and people of marginalised identities.

So, everyone.

VIDA Count • VIDA: Women in Literary Arts

https://www.vidaweb.org/the-count

Barbadossunset · 01/12/2023 13:02

The race of the writers is the issue.

Sorry, I don’t understand. I thought that a white writer can only write about white people but then there are complaints about lack of diversity.

Sdpbody · 01/12/2023 13:20

On a slight tangent, American Dirt is one of my favourite books. It really was written beautifully.

ArthurbellaScott · 01/12/2023 13:34

Barbadossunset · 01/12/2023 13:02

The race of the writers is the issue.

Sorry, I don’t understand. I thought that a white writer can only write about white people but then there are complaints about lack of diversity.

Yes, sorry, I'm being a bit sarcastic.

The idea is that there are only some 'approved' writers. If you can't write as a white person about other races, and you can't include other races without being accused of appropriation, then the only logical solution for white writers is to ... not write.

I do understand some of the arguments, fwiw. That 'lived experience' does matter. I remember arrogantly writing about motherhood before I'd been a mother, for example, and that piece would now make me cringe very hard. I can see that argument applying to other areas that I can't and won't ever experience. And certainly there are lots of disadvantages within writing/publishing that make it harder for some voices to be heard, and those need to be addressed. Class, income, caring commitments, race, educational background, etc. Otherwise we risk having a very narrow sliver of the populace involved in the arts.

On the other hand, the whole exercise of fiction is an exercise in empathy and imagination. It's maybe not the 'end point', maybe it's a way to learn or reach an understanding even of our own blindspots and shortcomings.

The solution to this is not to issue approval permits to those who fit the proper criteria of an ever tightening purity spiral, but to encourage a plurality of voices so that we could all hear more and listen more and develop more tolerance and understanding. Cancel fewer writers; encourage more.

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