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Ffs

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/20/trans-roman-emperor-hitchin-museum-claim-pronouns-woke/

I haven't managed to read the Telegraph article but there is actually quite a lot out there about Elagabalus who appears to have led a very varied life! Rather than imposing today's notions of gender on the past, it seems that the museum is doing its duty to highlight contradictions across different sources and how Roman ideas about sexual and gender identity were influenced by the status of men and women in society as a whole.

I did laugh at the Lib Dem councillor's coment about pronouns, as if Elagabalus wore a she/hers badge on their toga.

Oh god. That absolutely makes me despair. Young people are being taught this shit and apparently there's nothing we can do about it.

It is all very odd.

As an ex-museum professional and archaeologist, I admit I am always extremely wary of these sorts of articles by certain sections of the media. They often take a small item, extrapolate it beyond all sensible means, ignore any relevant context, and then try to claim that it's somehow reflective of an official policy or a grandiose declaration of adherence to a particular ideology / party line.

Flickersy · Today 08:33

To which I would ask: where is this declaration? Can anyone provide the source?

Do you think that this is entirely made up?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12772931/Roman-Emperor-Elagabalus-transgender-referred-museum.html

A Roman emperor has been branded transgender by a British museum provoking uproar among historians. The North Hertfordshire Museum has decided to refer to the 3rd-century AD ruler Elagabalus as 'she' to be 'sensitive' to their pronoun preferences in a display.

That's the same article, just rehashed. It offers no new evidence.

I don't think it's made up. I do think it likely to be unreasonably exaggerated which is why I said I would withhold judgement without seeing the exhibit (or photos of it, which are mysteriously absent) for myself.

And here we have a post on the museum's website, from February this year (LGBT+ History Month) attempting to trans Roman soldiers on the basis of hair pins
https://northhertsmuseum.org/lgbt-history-month-roman-hair-pins/

It doesn't do that at all.

It mentions the galli (castrated male priests) and says that in modern days they might perhaps be considered trans women.

Women aren't castrated men.

Wikipedia has a different slant: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elagabalus

not sure the target audience would want to adopt Elagabalus as an icon

Anc before that there id a long patagraph about cinaedi.

"However, we know from ancient literature that certain Roman men known as cinaedi behaved effeminately, wore women’s clothes and make-up, and had sex with other men. Some served in the army. In a short story by Phaedrus, a freedman of the Emperor Augustus, a tall and very effeminate cinaedus heroically defeated and decapitated a barbarian enemy after begging Pompey to allow him into battle. Although this is fiction, Phaedrus’s work shows that it was possible for cinaedi to serve in the army, even if they were not always respected by their commanding officers. Perhaps some hair pins are evidence for such men serving in the army in Britannia."

Has anyone claimed otherwise?

That doesn't claim they were trans though, or that they'd be considered trans. It just says they were effeminate.

We have effeminate men today, that doesn't mean they're trans or ID as women either.

My eyes are rolling so hard about this it’s quite difficult to type

The author of that article.

Another group of people who could wear women’s clothing were the galli, who served as priestesses of Cybele or Magna Mater. These people were born male but self-castrated in a religious frenzy to make themselves women

Fair enough, I missed that line. But I don't think that's actually claiming they became women tbh.

How about this

The cemetery at Bainesse, near the Roman town of Catterick, contained a skeleton that archaeologists identified as a fourth-century gallus with her necklace and bracelets but with DNA showing that she had been born male.

Note the pronouns.

"..to make themselves women"

Why can they not see that this is sexist crap????

I don't think it's made up. I do think it likely to be unreasonably exaggerated which is why I said I would withhold judgement without seeing the exhibit (or photos of it, which are mysteriously absent) for myself.

OK, then I don't see why you're getting annoyed about it.

I'm not annoyed. I am questioning the version of events as presented in the Telegraph (and reprinted in other papers).

Fair dos, but it does seem to be the case that it's true.

This is from another article on the museum website. It's by the same author as the other one, Keith Fitzpatrick-Matthews, who is the museum curator. So it does seem to be the curator who is in favour of transing the dead.

Emperor Elagabalus referred to Hierocles, a freedman who was a successful charioteer, as his husband. After granting him his freedom, the emperor attempted to have him declared Caesar, a junior partner in rule and intended successor. A second lover, an athlete named Zoticus, was appointed cubicularius (keeper of the bedroom). The ancient sources suggest that Elagabalus also married him and three other men in addition to his official husband, Hierocles; the historian Cassius Dio refers to the emperor’s relationships with these four other men as adultery, showing that the marriage to Hierocles was treated as a serious legal matter. If they were alive today, we would probably think of Elagabalus as transgender, as he reportedly asked whether a surgical procedure could make him female.

https://northhertsmuseum.org/romosexuality-sexuality-in-the-ancient-world/

"We know that Elagabalus identified as a woman and was explicit about which pronouns to use, which shows that pronouns are not a new thing.”

Slightly missing the point and it's been a while since I was at school but doesn't Latin not actually have pronouns?

It must have done.

"Et tu, Brute?

Found the pronouns

• I - Ego.
• You - Tu.
• He/She/It - Is/Ea/Id.
• We - Nos.
• You - Vos.
• They - Ei.

Mind you, the basis of the claim about pronouns is that our El is supposed to have told one (male) lover "Call me not Lord, for I am a Lady”, according to Cassius Dio.