Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
334bu · 14/11/2023 13:13

Thank you.

Hagiography · 14/11/2023 16:56

Okay. Starting with the intro, quoting what seem like important parts.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-delivery-relationships-sexual-health-parenthood-rshp-education-scottish-schools/pages/2/

'Alongside educational practitioners, this guidance is applicable to all professionals delivering RSHP education to children and young people, including youth workers, residential care staff, nurses including school nurses, health improvement staff, and specialist and generic third sector agencies.1.5. Furthermore, the principles set out in this guidance are equally relevant to informal education activity or information (oral and/or written) developed with and for children and young people looked after by local authorities in residential settings. It further applies to children and young people in youth clubs or groups which are funded, in whole or in part, by local authorities, the Scottish Government or other public agencies.'

'Parents and carers have the right to have their children educated in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions. This is why RSHP education should be presented in an objective, balanced and sensitive manner within a framework of sound values and an awareness of the law, and teachers should work closely with parents in its delivery, by discussing proposed lessons and resources with them in advance.'

'education authorities should have due regard to the three needs of the General Equality Duty below:

  • eliminate discrimination, harassment, victimisation and any other conduct that is prohibited by or under the Equality Act;
  • advance equality of opportunity between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not share it; and
  • foster good relations between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not share it.'

My bold. All of the above is pretty reasonable as far as I can see.

Delivery of relationships, sexual health and parenthood education in Scottish schools: draft guidance

Draft revised statutory teaching guidance for relationships, sexual health and parenthood (RSHP) education currently subject to public consultation until 23 November 2023.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-delivery-relationships-sexual-health-parenthood-rshp-education-scottish-schools/pages/2

OP posts:
Hagiography · 14/11/2023 17:19

Then, still in the intro, we get to the LGBTI working group.

'1.13. The LGBTI Inclusive Education Working Group’s report[9] to the Scottish Ministers recommended the Scottish Government develop National Guidance outlining their expectations regarding LGBT inclusive education while signposting practitioners to supporting resources. This links directly to this Working Group’s recommendation that “‘Conduct of Relationships, Sexual Health, and Parenthood Education in Schools’ (2014)[10] is updated. Furthermore, recommendation 8 advises that the updated guidance uses a ‘thematic outcomes’ based approach. These thematic outcomes should cover various themes related but not exclusive to LGBT equality and inclusion, including:

  • terminologies and identities;
  • the impact of social prejudice and the history of social rights movements;
  • the equality of people, families and relationships represented in an inclusive manner; and
  • how to recognise and respond to prejudice within school and wider society while respecting individual rights and privacy.”'

I would suggest the working group itself is worth looking at.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/lgbti-inclusive-education-working-group-report/pages/4/

'Organisations represented
COSLA
Education Scotland (ES)
Educational Institute of Scotland (EIS)
Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC)
LGBT Youth Scotland
National Parent Forum of Scotland (NPFS)
respectme
School Leaders Scotland (SLS)
Scottish Catholic Education Service (SCES)
Scottish Trans Alliance
Stonewall Scotland
Time for Inclusive Education (TIE)'

This list shows that the working group consists of educational groups, unions, the EHRC and groups that will all be familiar to MNFWR regulars.

No 'gender critical' groups have been consulted, although there are more than one in Scotland - Save Our Schools and Scottish Union for Education are two. The Scottish Government seems determined to focus on evidence from government funded groups with one very definite ideological slant. The SCES may offer a dissenting view, but it's not clear if this will extend to the majority of non-denominational schools in Scotland.

A little more on some of these groups:

LGBTYS are currently under police investigation after two ex service users made allegations of grooming and abuse.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lgbt-youth-scotland-refers-itself-to-police-over-historical-grooming-claims-v6wdvwclm

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/minister-accused-heartbreaking-betrayal-sex-28948168

Scottish Trans Alliance

https://www.scottishtrans.org/about/

TIE campaign - board of trustees includes Rhannion Spear (chair) and Aamer Anwar. Spear was a councillor, but now works as a trainee solicitor in Anwar's offices.

https://aameranwar.co.uk/meet_the_team/rhiannon-spear/

Stonewall Scotland needs no introduction.

All of these groups teach and preach 'gender identity' ideology.

Delivery of relationships, sexual health and parenthood education in Scottish schools: draft guidance

Draft revised statutory teaching guidance for relationships, sexual health and parenthood (RSHP) education currently subject to public consultation until 23 November 2023.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-delivery-relationships-sexual-health-parenthood-rshp-education-scottish-schools/pages/7/

OP posts:
OP posts:
Hagiography · 14/11/2023 19:29

Another organisation that is critical of 'gender identity' being taught in schools:

https://www.scotpag.com/about-4

About | ScotPAG

Who we are, history of the group, gender ideology in Scotland

https://www.scotpag.com/about-4

OP posts:
Hagiography · 14/11/2023 19:49

Okay, moving onto 2. Relationships, Sexual Health and Parenthood (RSHP) Education:

'Using community‑based partners, such as school nurses, drug and alcohol education workers, sexual health clinicians and specialist third sector agencies can enhance, but must not replace, the delivery of RSHP education by teachers/educational practitioners in schools.'

I wonder who these 'specialist third sector agencies' might be? Would they be the ones who have been advising the working group?

'Parents and carers play a key role in all aspects of their children’s education; they are their primary educators. Therefore, the collaborative partnership schools have with parents and carers should be a key element of RSHP education delivery. It is good practice for schools to regularly involve parents and carers in discussions on curriculum content, including RSHP education, in line with the Scottish Schools (Parental Involvement) Act 2006'

'2.10. Parents and carers should be given advanced opportunity to view key teaching materials and to ask questions about any aspect of the RSHP education programme.'

There follows a fair bit of waffle text about the UNCRC Rights of the Child. I've encountered this in school and see absolutely nothing of worth or value in it - it's based on the UNDHR and I can't see the need for this to be added to ostensibly for 'children' - children are de facto included in the UNDHR.

The other concern I have is related to this:

https://reduxx.info/german-parliament-accepts-constitutional-childrens-rights-petition-from-pro-pedophile-activist-group/

But that's a bit of a tangent. So I'm parking it for now.

This is worth noting:

Withdrawal from RSHP education

2.13. Having given parents and carers the opportunity to view the key teaching materials, they can decide to withdraw their children from participation in the sexual health elements of RSHP education. This option should be made known to parents and carers and their views respected.

There's further info on how this is done, including consulting with parents, making them aware of how difficult it might be to provide suitable alternative, and repeatedly checking that they still want to withdraw. IME you can request not to follow things - church services for example - but it's generally done with a certain amount of pained sighs and the implication that you are being difficult.

Overall, there's a strong suggestion that all children ought to be learning exactly what the government want them to learn in the manner the government think it should be taught.

German Parliament Accepts Constitutional "Children's Rights" Petition From Pro-Pedophile Activist Group - Reduxx

The German Bundestag has accepted a petition outlining children’s rights which was drafted by men involved in a pro-pedophilia activist organization. Krumme-13, a lobby group which advocates for lowering the age of consent and legalizing child pornogra...

https://reduxx.info/german-parliament-accepts-constitutional-childrens-rights-petition-from-pro-pedophile-activist-group

OP posts:
SaffronSpice · 14/11/2023 21:26

This bit:

”Where a child or young person is withdrawn from RSHPeducation, suitable arrangements should be made, in conjunction with parents and carers, and the child or young person, for them to participate in an appropriate alternative activity, that aligns with the experiences and outcomes of Curriculum for Excellence, and does not impact on their comprehensive and holistic education. The diagram below outlines some of the areas of consideration for parents and carers seeking to withdraw their child or young person from RSHP education. However, while schools should do their best to accommodate, it is acknowledged it can sometimes be a significant challenge for them to put a suitable alternative in place, in addition to existing curriculum design. Any potential negative impacts on the curricular progression of the child or young person or their right to an education should be conveyed to parents and carers.

So you can withdraw your child but it will be made clear to you that it will negatively impact them.

Plus

”can decide to withdraw their children from participation in the sexual health elements of RSHP education”.

Not all of it, only sexual health.

SaffronSpice · 14/11/2023 21:28

where individuals are not looked on as potential victims or perpetrators but as empowered and active bystanders with the ability to support and challenge their peers in a safe way

peer pressure to make your child conform

SaffronSpice · 14/11/2023 21:32

I’ve yet to spot reference to the Children (Scotland) Act 1995

2 Parental rights.

(1)Subject to section 3(1)(b) [F1, and (d)] and (3) of this Act, a parent, in order to enable him to fulfil his parental responsibilities in relation to his child, has the right—

(b)to control, direct or guide, in a manner appropriate to the stage of development of the child, the child’s upbringing;

Hagiography · 14/11/2023 21:33
  1. Embedding RSHP Education

This section is about consent, child protection and safeguarding, including legal issues regarding sex.

'Children and young people have the same right to confidentiality as adults, namely personal and private information disclosed during RSHP education should not be shared without consent. It should be ensured that children and young people are informed from the outset that confidentiality is not absolute, and that every reasonable attempt will be made to discuss with them beforehand if information needs to be shared.'

How does this impact on children socially transitioning at school and parents being informed of this?

'Schools have a key role to play in providing an educational experience that is inclusive for all, regardless of the beliefs and values they hold. With inclusive RSHP education, children and young people, where religion and/or belief plays a role in their identities, should be able to feel included and accepted within their school and community.'

Will schools be teaching that while some people believe in 'gender identity', some peope havee 'gender critical' beliefs?

'Learners can feel excluded from learning if only one set of values or a theme has dominated learning, while their own beliefs, values and views are excluded'

'practitioners should be sensitive to the possible range of perspectives around modesty and inclusivity.'

Then a section follows with links to some faith groups.

Overall, this section seems to have had input from educational professionals.

The next bit is about stereotypes, but uses 'gender' throughout.

'It is widely understood there is no inherent difference between individuals based on their gender alone which should limit their interests, capabilities or ambitions'

There is no discussion of the difference between 'sex' and 'gender'.

Then an extensive section on VSC/DSDs/Intersex people.

'3.13. DSD and VSC are umbrella terms that bring together a range of around 40 biological conditions which affect sex‑linked chromosomes, sex‑linked hormones (i.e.: testosterone/oestrogen) and/or the development of the genitals and the reproductive organs. These terms relate to biological sex and are not to be confused with sexual orientation or gender identity. Just under 0.02% of the population are born with such a condition.'

'3.14. Sometimes people talk about ‘intersex’ and also use a much broader definition that relates to lived experience. When including Late‑Onset CAH (Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, which some describe as similar to Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome) to the above conditions this affects up to 1.7% of the population.'

Then we're onto:

LGBT Inclusive Education

'To enable LGBT inclusive education across the curriculum, there should also be an emphasis on the importance of interdisciplinary learning, including but not exclusively, through Expressive Arts, Languages, Literacy, Health and Wellbeing, Numeracy, Religious and Moral Education, Sciences and Social Studies'

Just about everything, then.

Another section with relevance to children who may be 'gender incongruent' and implications for teachers sharing info with parents:

'3.20. In addition to confidentiality for young people as outlined in paragraph 3.6, recognition should be given to particular issues of confidentiality for LGBT young people. Schools should be alert to safeguarding duties, and the fact that some young people may not have told everyone in their lives about their sexual orientation and/or gender identity and unnecessarily sharing personal information about them with others (‘outing’), such as through social media, could cause direct and needless distress.
3.21. A young person ‘coming out’ as lesbian, gay, bisexual and/or transgender is not in itself a safeguarding or child protection concern. However, circumstances related to their ‘coming out’ or additional information shared by the young person could be, such as experiencing bullying and the emotional impact it is having, or individual mental health concerns. In these and similar circumstances, schools should follow their standard safeguarding procedures to ensure the safety and wellbeing of the child or young person.'

'Information regarding sexual health for LGBT women and trans people is often missing or is highly sexualised online;'

Then follows resources:

'LGBT Inclusive Education: Whole School Resources and SignpostsLGBTI Inclusive Education Working Group: report to the Scottish Ministers
https://www.gov.scot/publications/lgbti-inclusive-education-working-group-report/
LGBT inclusive education teaching resources and teacher training modules
https://lgbteducation.scot/
LGBT Youth Scotland research
https://www.lgbtyouth.org.uk/media/1354/life-in-scotland-for-lgbt-young-people.pdf
LGBT Youth Scotland curriculum guide
https://www.lgbtyouth.org.uk/media/1585/lgbtys-curriculum-inclusion.pdf
LGBT Youth Scotland anti-bullying resource
https://www.lgbtyouth.org.uk/media/1299/addressing-inclusion-2020.pdf
Stonewall: The School Report 2017
https://www.stonewall.org.uk/school-report-2017
TIE Icons
https://www.tie.scot/primary
https://www.tie.scot/secondary
Supporting transgender young people in schools: guidance for Scottish schools
https://www.gov.scot/publications/supporting-transgender-young-people-schools-guidance-scottish-schools/pages/1/'

The same issues with LGBT YS and TIE as noted previously.

Delivery of relationships, sexual health and parenthood education in Scottish schools: draft guidance

Draft revised statutory teaching guidance for relationships, sexual health and parenthood (RSHP) education currently subject to public consultation until 23 November 2023.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-delivery-relationships-sexual-health-parenthood-rshp-education-scottish-schools/pages/4#p3.6

OP posts:
Hagiography · 14/11/2023 21:38

The final link there is to the contested 2021 guidance for 'supporting transgender young people' that had not yet been statutory, but presumably this is them now trying to make it so.

https://forwomen.scot/18/06/2023/withdraw-the-supporting-transgender-young-people-in-schools-guidance-from-scottish-schools/

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-government-warned-ditch-risky-28885491

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/transgender-ideology-in-scotlands-schools-is-peddling-a-harmful-lie-susan-dalgety-4203159

Also related to Section 3:

Schools keeping information from parents re children 'transitioning'.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/dundee/4523260/dundee-school-pupil-gender-transition/

Withdraw the ‘Supporting transgender young people in schools’ guidance from Scottish schools - For Women Scotland

This is our submission to the Citizen Participation and Public Petitions Committee who are considering petition PE2001 calling on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to withdraw the ‘Supporting transgender young people in schools: g...

https://forwomen.scot/18/06/2023/withdraw-the-supporting-transgender-young-people-in-schools-guidance-from-scottish-schools

OP posts:
Hagiography · 14/11/2023 21:40

I'll do Section 4 and 5 tomorrow.

OP posts:
SaffronSpice · 14/11/2023 22:01

Hagiography · 14/11/2023 21:38

I spotted that too. I am not convinced that linking them in this guidance makes them statutory. Otherwise we would be in much bigger trouble given some of the other resources they linked.

Hagiography · 14/11/2023 22:20

Well, it's not very clear! Perhaps a point worth asking about/making?

Are we being asked to comment on this guidance while they sneak in other guidance in the form of embedded links?

OP posts:
Hagiography · 14/11/2023 22:20

Perhaps all will be revealed in Section 4.

OP posts:
Skyvemind · 15/11/2023 16:32

Thank you for doing this Hagiography. It’s quite an intimidating consultation for the average parent who isn’t an educational specialist.

Hagiography · 15/11/2023 20:09

I know. I'm just a parent. It would be great if we could trust the experts to do the right thing by our children.

Unfortunately, I don't.

OP posts:
Hagiography · 17/11/2023 13:45
  1. Summary of key learning points

4.4. There are some misconceptions that children and young people who require additional support are not, or will not, be sexually active. As with all children and young people, those who require additional support, including those with a learning disability, must be included in RSHP lessons so they have the same opportunity to develop their knowledge and understanding of healthy, safe, respectful and loving relationships[24]. Some children and young people who require additional support are at a greater risk of being drawn into perpetration of harmful sexual behaviours, and relevant and meaningful RSHP education can support them to avoid those particular behaviours.

[This section wrt learning disabled children - is there any evidence that all sex ed is good for vulnerable children? Is there ever a consideration that sometimes some sex ed might actually increase risk?

I'm not a safeguarding expert, it would be good to see what they base these assertions on. But there are no references. ]

Inclusivity

4.12. Through effective learning and teaching, children and young people develop their skills in using inclusive language when referring to or addressing individuals. This will allow them to discover and express their own identity and will support the potential to tackle gender stereotypes, ultimately improving gender equality in and outside the classroom.

[I want to know what exactly they mean by 'inclusive language'. And 'identity'. ]

'RSHP educational content should also reflect healthy relationships within diverse sexual and gender identities, and family types.'

['Diverse gender identities' is problematic. ]

4.14. The thematic outcomes related to LGBT inclusion, awareness, and equalities in RSHP education are contained in the LGBTI Inclusive Education Working Group’s report[32]. Further information can also be found in the Quality Indicators of How Good is Our School 4 (HGIOS4)[33], particularly QI 3.1, as well as Education Scotland's National Improvement Hub[34].

[Again, is this trying to hide some things in links and other referenced sources? Do we actually need to read this linked report, rather than the document they've put out for 'consultation'?]

Delivery of relationships, sexual health and parenthood education in Scottish schools: draft guidance

Draft revised statutory teaching guidance for relationships, sexual health and parenthood (RSHP) education currently subject to public consultation until 23 November 2023.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-delivery-relationships-sexual-health-parenthood-rshp-education-scottish-schools/pages/7/

OP posts:
Hagiography · 17/11/2023 14:06

Section 5 is RSHP: Policy, Guidance and Learning and Teaching Resources

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-delivery-relationships-sexual-health-parenthood-rshp-education-scottish-schools/pages/6/

This is really just a long list of links to references.

In LGBT, it links again to:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/supporting-transgender-young-people-schools-guidance-scottish-schools/

Sections to look at more closely:

Pornography
Young people, sex and relationships: The new norms (2014)

LGBT
LGBT Resources
LGBT Mapping Across Curriculum for Excellence
Stonewall Scotland

(All either LGBTYS or Stonewall, both of which are highly problematic)

Actually, LGBT is included twice as a header. The second list has links to TIE and more LGBTYS info.

Delivery of relationships, sexual health and parenthood education in Scottish schools: draft guidance

Draft revised statutory teaching guidance for relationships, sexual health and parenthood (RSHP) education currently subject to public consultation until 23 November 2023.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-delivery-relationships-sexual-health-parenthood-rshp-education-scottish-schools/pages/6

OP posts:
Hagiography · 17/11/2023 14:12

Okay. Having read this whole guidance, I'd say most of it looks relatively sensible, written by education professionals.

Some issues that struck me:

The organisations cited as references for LGBT issues. Stonewall Scotland, LGBTYS, TIE.

All posit 'gender identity' and push 'transgender' ideas, often to the detriment of same-sex orientation.

I haven't checked through all of the many links to resources. I guess these are not statutory, despite being linked in statutory guidance. But citing them as references certainly lends weight to their existence.

Be great to hear from others with education expertise or any other thoughts or observations - I am just a parent with very limited experience!

OP posts:
OP posts:
Hagiography · 21/11/2023 22:48

Thanks, seXX.

OP posts:
seXX · 22/11/2023 07:45

I found this interesting in the section about DSD in RSHP; substitute 'intersex' with 'trans identifying':

The United Nations Human Rights Office, Global Campaign against Homophobia and Transphobia says
“Intersex people are born with sex characteristics that don’t fit typical definitions of male and female. In many countries, intersex children are subjected to repeated surgery and treatment to try to change their sex characteristics and appearance, causing terrible physical, psychological and emotional pain – and violating their rights. Intersex children don’t need to be “fixed”; they are perfect just as they are!”

Intersex babies are perfect just as they are!

United Nations for intersex awareness

http://www.unfe.org/intersex-awareness/

Hagiography · 22/11/2023 07:47

Oof.

OP posts: