Non Binary Gym Changing Rooms

[NevermindNelson]

I’ve just had an email from a gym I use explaining that their changing rooms are going to become gender neutral. I don’t even know where to start to reply. The email states that they’re proud to do this.

I want to reply with the reasons that I’m cancelling my membership, but all I’ve got so far is, “What, seriously?”

Maybe I should just send this - Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities. Because they have made the changing rooms unisex, haven’t they?

Edited to correct the term as ‘gender neutral’

As I've said, the reason why I mentioned anti-trans is because whether people want to admit it or not that's where these fears come from. The media/right wing politicians have been using transphobia to push a narrative that men are using changing rooms and bathrooms to attack women and it's just not true

So you reckon that 20 years ago, before trans was a 'thing', we would all have been quite happy to strip off and shower in front of strange men?

THESE ARENT CUBICLES.

@titchy Thank you. There's no sauna, there are no cubicles, it is one small room where women get changed.

I'm also grateful for the explanations of how things work in Europe. I often see comments along the lines of 'this is how they do it in Denmark/Germany, etc' so it's really interesting to see how they actually do it.

@Nn9011 ' gender neutral' aka mixed sex changing - I first noticed 'family changing' in the big pools with chutes etc about 30 years ago. Mobile phones didn't exist in any meaningful way then (if at all?), so there was very little danger of being recorded and all those horrors. The situation has got increasingly worse and now we're facing issues like op is.

You say op could spend her time fighting to protect women where we're really vulnerable - I paraphrase. Where the fuck is that if it's not naked in a room with unknown men?

I wouldn't resign immediately. Instead I would reply to them briefly and ask them to rethink. Tell them that nine-tenths of sexual harassment and assaults occur in mixed-sex changing rooms, and mixed-sex changing rooms are especially dangerous to women. Are they planning to introduce private individual facilities instead? And then say that if they insist on going ahead with mixed-sex changing in a shared room then you will have to resign your membership and will they reconsider?

the reason why I mentioned anti-trans is because whether people want to admit it or not that's where these fears come from.

No. This is arse about face.
The issue here is that we need sex segregated facilities because a minority of males (whatever their gender, most will be blokes with no trans identity) are a threat to women. The stats on the greater number of problems occurring in mixed sex changing rooms is clear. This is the source of women's fears, and it's entirely rational.

The availability of sex segregated facilities has been eroded by the transactivists demands for being able to use the opposite sex facilities, or a push for 'gender neutral'. The latter may be attractive to service providers because it may be cheaper for them so of course they're happy to rainbow-wash it and sod women and girls safety and dignity.

I'm also grateful for the explanations of how things work in Europe. I often see comments along the lines of 'this is how they do it in Denmark/Germany, etc' so it's really interesting to see how they actually do it.

Yes, I find this interesting too. It’s always framed as ‘Oh, you British women are so repressed and uptight, everyone is cool with this on the continent’. A blatant attempt to shame women who want to uphold their boundaries. I have never lived in Europe but have spent time in multiple European counties where I’ve used swimming pools and saunas and never once have I been expected to get undressed or shower in the presence of a man. I went to a fantastic pool in rural Germany which had several different areas including a mixed sex nudist area. Unsurprisingly, use of this area was down to personal choice and there were plenty of other spaces at the facility where women could change and shower away from men.

FFS, RTFT before jumping in next time. You've made yourself look a complete fool.

the fact is, if women are given a genuine choice, almost zero of them want to share a changing/showering space with men, whatever the gender identity they have that day. For whatever reason, it's their clear choice, almost unanimous.

If there were enough cool women like No911 volunteering to share space with and validate males with gender identities, then they wouldn't be trying to get it from unwilling women, would they?

ETA (they totally would anyway, this is known)

Not just unknown men, unknown men who have deliberately chosen a space where they know some women (and some religious / cultural minorities) will be uncomfortable with their presence and decide to do it anyway.

I'm betting if anyone bothered to monitor, that kind of male bodied person would have much higher rates of sexual offending, statistically, than the men who didn't exhibit such total disregard for the boundaries of others.

I've said many times, in this sort of set up women really are safer in with the men who don't deliberately decide to disregard women's boundaries.

All the 'oh the French are so cool with this' attempts to shame women disregard the (google says) 5% population / 3.35 million Muslims in France too. I'm betting they're not fine with mixed sex facilities.

Thats before you get to other minority groups that require single sex facilities also.

@Nn9011 jesus christ.

Firstly, as others are pointing out, the op has already said THERE AREN’T ANY CUBICLES.

Also, stop talking crap on behalf of women. This is nothing to do with trans people. Women are allowed to not want to get changed in front of men. This is about men, not trans people. I have never been assaulted by a trans person but i have been assaulted by men. And it doesn’t have to be physical. I still have the memory of walking home in school uniform and a man walking past me telling me i had nice breasts. Educate yourself please.

Do
name the gym
chain, OP. The sooner this gets into the Daily Mail, the sooner it will be reversed

Indeed. The French state has gone out of its way to make it difficult for Muslim women to participate in public life. There is nothing cool about this, nor should we be aspiring to emulate this kind of exclusion.

You mean the fears weren't a thing until people who run changing rooms decided to turn spaces mixed sex in order to get points on diversity indexes?

And when women started highlighting the risks of this, and were labelled 'anti-trans' when that's not the case at all. The issue is MALES.

Do we really have to keep pointing this out time and time again? Why is this so hard to wrap your head around?

My point is that these fears weren't a thing until recently when transphobia became a pushed narrative by the media.

We started discussing this here on FWR before it was highlighted in the media, you can check back. So no.

narratives that men in changing rooms is dangerous when the statistics say otherwise.

The statistics do say that mixed-sex changing rooms are more dangerous for women. I dunno what sort of narratives you have going on in your head.

Nn9011

Obviously, you didn't read the op. But even so, my question is what benefit is it to women to be in mixed sex facilities?

Because I'm a 100% certain, that the women in this scenario have never even crossed your mind. Much less have you considered whether or not this is any benefit to them.

'Women? Benefit? What do you mean?'

If mixed sex facilities make women uncomfortable, why the fuck would you advocate for it??

No women anywhere in the world have ever demanded that men share spaces with them when they're undressing, naked etc. And it's very recently (not decades) that those who promote behaviours that disrespect the social contract and women's rights to boundaries have been allowed to influence public policy and successfully start to dismantle safeguarding.

Denial of facts and statistics is fundamental for those holding these views, as is dismissing women's lived experiences & society's knowledge of how we safeguard the vulnerable. It's very sad to see.

NevermindNelson

i'm sure the urge to write a furious email, with a whole load of what the fucks in it, is overwhelming. But I would definitely start calm (if you can!)

I would also alert the media. The Daily Mail would lap it up.

If you're getting no joy, you could ask the gym to confirm that they are 'proud' to encourage middle aged men to get undressed in front of your teenage daughters.

(a variation on the Staniland question)

Do you believe that male-sexed people have the right to undress and shower in a communal changing room with teenage girls?

Or are they 'proud' that they are forcing teenage girls to disrobe in front of middle-aged men?

Jesus wept.

Altho, I am hopeful. I can't imagine anyone wanting this.

@Datun I'm moving more towards something very short and bullet-pointed - I think that anything with paragraphs will be ignored. And I can't write until I get a reply with clarification, so I'm trying to be patient.

@MrsOvertonsWindow Exactly! Can you imagine a woman walking up to the receptionist saying, "Lovely class, just wish there were more men in the changing room."

You don't understand why I haven't named the gym? You can't think of a single reason why I might not want to name the actual gym?

You don't have to believe it, I can't make you.

I believe you, rings true to me.

The op said it's a very small chain, so it's probably very local and certainly not a national brand. Many people don't want to identify to closely where they live. That's plenty reason enough for her not to name it.