Non Binary Gym Changing Rooms

[NevermindNelson]

I’ve just had an email from a gym I use explaining that their changing rooms are going to become gender neutral. I don’t even know where to start to reply. The email states that they’re proud to do this.

I want to reply with the reasons that I’m cancelling my membership, but all I’ve got so far is, “What, seriously?”

Maybe I should just send this - Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities. Because they have made the changing rooms unisex, haven’t they?

Edited to correct the term as ‘gender neutral’

@Chariothorses Thank you, am reading and re-reading that. I’m focussing on this - ‘the service is in a situation where a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.’ It hasn’t got anything to do with gender identity, it’s to do with sex.

NevermindNelson

I know it's hard, because you don't have all the answers at your fingertips.

But just remember, that it's not discriminatory to expect a man, however he identifies, to not change with the women.

If he doesn't have a certificate, he should be compared to other men. So if they let him in (the transwoman), they have to let any man in. Otherwise they are potentially discriminating against those other men.

And even if he has a certificate, he can still be excluded under the exemptions. And changing rooms were used as an example of these exclusions.

He doesn't have to be forced in with the men, if they can provide an alternative arrangement for him, though. Like a single occupancy place.

And, if you can, I would keep calling him a man, and using male pronouns. It will focus their minds on what they're actually doing.

Agreed - sexed pronouns for clarity.

And if they are resistant on the reality of sex, it may be worth asking how they plan to distinguish between a 'real trasnwoman' and a man who merely says he's a woman to exploit their policy.

Good news. I agree to let him speak first, record the call, and also have someone you trust there as a witness/note taker.

Btw they seem to change their story every time which makes me think they couldn't even organise a piss-up in a brewery. The first email makes it sounds like both changing rooms will be exactly the same regarding who can go in, so both basically a free for all with male and female. Then they said this is only at specific class times, and now it's still officially men's and women's, but trans people are allowed anywhere.

You cannot force women to get undressed with males to access a service this is a good way of putting it and pointing out the discrimination on the basis of sex of this.

Also...
I'm beginning to wonder when we're going to get to the point where someone tries to bluntly make the argument that not providing a load of unconsenting women to validate an AGP fetish is 'discrimination or to flip it about 'are you proposing that not providing unconsenting women to validate a sexual fetish (which many transwomen have said they have and you can't tell which ones they are) is discriminatory?'

If they proceed as they've suggested they'll be discriminating on the grounds of sex and religion.

Why can't they just have a third space rather than throwing all the women and children under the bus?

Probably because that costs money but women and children are disposable in the minds of those making these decisions. I hope the loss of income from women truly screws their business 😡

Of course they're doing it in an unclear way hoping that people won't realise the full implications.

I think this is wise advice
My bet is they haven't given this any thought at all, and just thought they were doing a kind/progressive thing, without mentally following through what the consequences might be.
We are all deeply steeped in the issues and can cite many cases that they won't have heard of.
I think having heard their rationale, then explain that you, a woman, don't want to be naked and vulnerable around a man - whatever he calls himself. Furthermore, there will be other women with additional reasons not able to use the gym under these conditions- conservative religious women, Traveller women, survivors of domestic and sexual abuse.
If they then cite 'but we have to, it's the law' then you can explain 'no, a lot of people think that, but actually its perfectly legal to have single sex provision I'll send you some documents explaining all that'
Ultimately their main interest is the bottom line, so who do they want to exclude- a large number of women, or 1 or 2 men?

It really gives a whole new grim twist to the 'get your tits out for the lads' thing doesn't it?

If you want to access this service, the price is to get your kit off for any male that wishes to be present. His agenda may vary, but it's not like you get any say or right to feelings about it whatever it might be.

Excellent advice here as ever.

When I did a module on my degree course, we looked at change theory, if I remember correctly. One of the things that stuck with me was that it is that the people wanting to make the change are the ones to persuade everybody that the change is needed and why, what an improvement it will be etc etc.

So I'd stay calm, record it all, use 'mixed sex' and appropriate sex pronouns where needed, but only focus on the law and not insert too many hypotheticals, although I do find scenarios useful. Maybe describe how you might be naked, having just stepped out of the shower with maybe a small towel around you and there's a man in the room. Can they understand why this is not acceptable? 'Non binary' has no status in law, as far as I can see.

These people need to justify why they are doing what they are doing, it's not for you to justify why you need the status quo to remain in place.

The irony is that the CEO might very well be convinced and keep the changing rooms single sex, but the trans woman will still feel entitled to waltz into the ladies.

With reference to recording the call I think that is only so that there is not then a recording they haven't consented to floating around, but if you use an app like otter which will record it and then create a transcript for you then you can delete the recording and just have the transcript which is simply a contemporaneous verbatim note of the meeting, which is something you could produce easily with a note taker or if you use short hand, and so there wouldn't be any legal objection to that and you wouldn't have to tell them that you were using it.

For example, I use shorthand and very often take a complete verbatim note of conversations and meetings but I don't tell anyone I'm doing it because it's perfectly okay and legal to make notes -the issue is around a recording of somebody and having that recording available as far as I know from my journalistic training.

But if you do use otter note that the free version will only record for 40 minutes before it stops and it won't tell you it stopped, so you have to keep a note of the time or put an alarm on your phone so that you can stop and restart a new recording.

Yes. Some of the really determined boundary breakers of women will do this.

And this is when women need to be able to go to the front desk and say there is a male in the women's space who is determined to use the women there for their own reasons, and the staff are able to go and say to the male in question, you have the male facilities, or you have the gender neutral provided alternative facility. You may not invade a female only space, you may not remove inclusion from women and if you choose to be unpleasant about this I will be glad to call the police to remove you, and ban you from these premises. We welcome trans people on our premises, we do not welcome anyone of any gender who wishes to remove inclusion, privacy and dignity from women.

And before we get the inevitable 'but you won't know' - well if they pass so well and behave appropriately that no woman notices, what's the issue? Other than they are using and deceiving women intentionally for their own reasons and are a dick. The problems for women are not caused by well behaved 'you can't tell' ones.

Of course, that's why we're fighting for these spaces. It's irritating because the social compact has been broken and I don't trust single sex spaces as much anymore.

@NevermindNelson have you had the call yet?

Not yet - I sent the email with my availability and I’m waiting for them to come back to me. I’m guessing it will be Monday now.

Brilliant work OP.

I have dds so I thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I’m just about to reply to their email from the 22nd for the third time, first two were me giving my availability for a call. Nothing back from them at all. I’m trying not to be snippy, but they asked for my availability over the next seven days and now they’ve run the clock down.

Possibly they work for the Conservatives and follow the policy of wank around for months making a few noises about possibly listening to you, and hope it goes away.

Sorry OP, I hope you get something back from them soon.

That describes it exactly. I’ve seen a snazzy video of the first class and there is a paper sign on the male changing room saying to use if you identify as male, I assume the same ion the female.

Another class is scheduled, but I can’t see which one it is as there isn’t any tag or highlight on the booking app on that day.

I’ve just sent an email - I was going to wait and carefully craft it, but I just wanted to get it done. I’ve explained that I can’t tell if I’m booking a class where men are invited into the women’s changing room and that’s not acceptable for me, so I want to close any connection with their gym.

Following with interest. Thanks OP for opposing this dangerous nonsense.

How disappointing. I would advise that before you leave, try to take photos of the changing room and showers when there's no one there, to be able to show if needed just how inappropriate it would be for men and women to use together, you said they were quite small and not so private. It's possible the CEO has never even been there. You can also post anonymously on Twitter etc if/when you feel up to it.

That's infuriating. Hope you also asked for a refund for any unused credit.

Think you'll feel able to go public now? Identify the gym?

Ah, interesting. I think they were hoping that the idea of talking to the CEO might be sufficiently frightening to silence you, possibly because of sex based stereotypes about how biological women (not the shouty kind that get everything rearranged to get access to unconsenting women's bodies) are supposed to behave. Little did they know that you are sure of your rights and your ground.

Do make sure, given they've changed the terms of your contract and acted in a discriminatory way against you on the pc of sex and belief, which you don't consent to, that they fully refund any money they owe you.

I think you're right, I've waited a week for a phone call that was never seriously going to happen.

I sent them this, "I see that another class is planned, but there is no tag or highlight on the app, so I could book a class where men are invited into the women’s changing room - without being aware of it. That isn’t what I signed up for, so I’d like to close my account with 'gym', I’d appreciate it if you could return my latest payment."