Can I bring your attention to Women's Fencing?

[marksandfencers]

It is currently under threat by gender ideology. Fencing is already a relatively niche, male-heavy sport, so allowing self-ID to take place would significantly damage the women's competition.

I have family connections to the sport and want the women's competition to flourish. Allowing men into the women's competition is, in a word, unethical.

A consultation is currently happening. Members and non-members of British Fencing alike can respond to it -- so please, please respond!

Here is the info from their website to make sure you fill in the correct form:

1. Individual Members age 16 and over – All British Fencing members age 16 and over will receive a survey in the week of the 23rd October (the first emails will go out Monday afternoon). This survey is being run by University of Hertfordshire and BF will only received anonymised results. Within the survey there are opportunities for members to make their views known via freeform comment fields and members can also provide links to additional published research if they wish that to be brought to our attention. (If you are a member please check your communication preferences in the BF membership platform – we can only send you an email if you have given us permission. If you have given us permission and not received an email by 23rd October please check your junk email and then complete this form to request a link.)
2. Individual Members under the age of 16 are invited to submit their views direct to us here.
3. Affiliated clubs, Home Nations and other representative bodies in the fencing community can submit their views direct to us here.
4. Non Members (Individuals and Organisations) – Non member individuals who do not participate in fencing activities and other unaffiliated interested organisations can submit their views direct to us here.

If you're not sure what to respond, I've found Fair Play For Women's sport section to be a good starting point: https://fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/sports-campaign/ Please share any other resources that may help.

Thank you.

I don’t know anything about fencing beyond the swords (rapiers?) and white suits, but could you say a bit about the physical skills needed in fencing and how sex-based characteristics might make a difference?

Longer reach (arm and leg lunge), faster reactions, better hand-eye co-ordination - are the immediate ones that spring to mind.

I fenced for my home nation at Commonwealth level, ahem kilos ago.

In training you’d frequently fight men and they were far far more aggressive, far stronger, think brute force rather than guile, and generally taller but the aggression and strength out weighs the height. I could beat a woman 6 inches taller than me but the way the blokes came down the piste at you was so violent and physical. The very good male fencers would alter their fighting , hard to explain but they would try to use accuracy and tactics rather than just slugging it out.

This is so very important. A TW just started fencing as I retired and it pissed me off immensely.

Missing the pointe of the the thread (not really 😁) but that's a fab user name OP!

Great, they have a link to a trans group at the end of the survey. Much open-minded, so fairness.

God have these entitled men still not get the message yet?

women’s sport is for women, it’s not for you

And links to the NHS and countless organisations for those traumatised at having to complete the survey.
Interesting to note that there is no link to women's groups given that the proposals are about handing over women's fencing to men? Presumably this is indicative of the personal anti women prejudices of those responsible for this regressive initiative?

Liz Kocab
https://katv.com/news/nation-world/transgender-female-takes-gold-in-womens-fencing-championships-sparking-outrage-liz-kocab-veteran-world-championships-trans-lgbt-riley-gaines-marshi-smith

Completed and submitted. Used to fence many years ago. Quite a ridiculous development.

My DDs are under-16 members. At present they fence mixed because there aren't enough girls in each age category. They find it quite frustrating because they're a lot shorter than the boys, so it's really hard for them to score and increasingly they defeatedly assume they're going to lose every time they fence a boy. (But I have noticed that there are other girls whose greater skill does allow them to beat some boys so long as the height discrepancy is not too great.)

I'm not sure they'll want to submit their comments directly as the form requires all details and so will not be anonymous.

@MrsOvertonsWindow Thank you

To @MaybeDoctor and anyone else who is new to the sport, I've written a bit below to help break it down. It's been a long time since I've fenced, so I've brought some context from my male partner, who is a long-term fencer:

General overview of the sport:

There are three weapons - Sabre, Epee and Foil. Each weapon comes with different rules. My partner has been fencing regionally for almost 20 years in two of these weapons.

How you perform is based on a combination of skill, experience, form, strength and speed. A skilful experienced fencer will be able to beat someone stronger and faster, but for two fencers of equivalent skill and experience, speed and strength will give additional advantages.

Speed is important for faster footwork and faster, easier arm movements. Strength is important for parrying, holding blades and breaking through parries. Fitness also plays a role: a hard fight to 15 points can be extremely tiring, and fitter fencers have an advantage in the end.

There is also an advantage in being taller (longer arm reach, extending the blade). Being aggressive and being more intimidating also gives a psychological advantage against opponents.

The majority of fencers at competitive tournaments are men, which provides its own advantages for men developing and progressing in the sport.

To summarise the differences: a few years ago, my partner took up a new weapon. When he was first learning it, he was a complete beginner and used to get beaten by women all the time. With just five years training in that weapon, it is now rare for him to get beaten by a woman.

Some anecdotal examples of the advantages men have:

1. In the tournament circuit, there are friendly mixed-sex tournaments called 48’ers. Competitors get split into 8 groups of 6 fencers each, and those who do well advance into higher groups. Those who do badly end up in lower groups. My partner has participated in many of these tournaments and has never seen a woman make the top group at the end of the day. It should theoretically be doable, as it’s aimed at the average fencer, but women making it to the top in this mixed-sex context is rare.

2. At rated competitions, finals take place one after the other -- you have the women’s final then the men’s final. Any experienced fencer will immediately notice the difference between the two. My partner, who is again a regional fencer, has beaten women who have won opens. He has never come anywhere close to beating a man who has won an open. If the medallists of an open held a team’s match of men vs women and fenced each other competitively, it would not even be close.

3. To illustrate the difference between sexes, my partner recently fenced the male #1 fencer of a large country. On the same day, he fenced the women’s #1 of a similarly sized country. He had no idea at the time that either of them were international champions. The man was by far the best my partner had ever fenced -- matches go to 15 points, and my partner was roundly thrashed. When my partner fenced the female champion of her country, my partner managed to win. They had a few other matches after, and she won some, and my partner won some, but the point is it was always close.

A final thing: the only people in his club he's ever heard saying women’s fencing should be open to transwomen... are men. Men are not the ones who will be adversely affected by the decisions made, and with the large majority of British Fencing members being men, they'll drown out responses from the women who actually fence in these competitions and are the ones who will be affected by the decisions made.

So women, please, please respond to the consultation to help our women fencers!

I did. some fencing back in my uni days. I remember very distinctly that the males had the sheer strength to just smash through any parry. The women could be technically perfect in all their defence moves — a male opponent didn’t have to be fast, or able to predict or have any technical ability to win. All they have to do is bulldoze through.

Plus. It fucking hurts when a blokes hit lands compared to a woman. So it takes longer to recover after each hit, compounding the disadvantage.

Done. Thanks for the heads up.
Loving all the care at the end of the survey in case you feel threatened.

Women wear chest protectors which also has a slight effect on how you move

Done. My DD fences at school.

I fenced for my home nation at Commonwealth level, ahem kilos ago.

I giggled at the phrase ‘kilos ago’.

But thank you for your very clear examples of why women should be allowed to play sport against other women instead of men.

I tried my kit on last year, it still fulfilled the requirements for Kevlar levels (1600N) and almost suffocated so I handed it down to a youngster from the hood. Hopefully they get their stripes one day!

I participate in a full-contact martial art, not a million miles from fencing. I'm still relatively new to it and in no particular hurry to progress, so I've done very little sparring so far. It's an embryonic sport in its current incarnation - only been around for 30-40 years - and has no world-wide regulating body.
I know little about the competition scene, so this thread prompted me to do some research. I saw several things to concern me, should I ever want to compete. Some mixed, rather than single sex, competition and the recent creation of a category for 'under-represented genders' instead of a female category. For context - this is a sport with the potential for extreme injury, despite safety equipment.
I cannot comprehend the failure to understand we fight with our bodies, not our genders.

I've just opened up the form and the list of support for people who might find filling out a form traumatising is absolutely mind-boggling.

I met my DH at a fencing club 45 years ago. We used to have local mixed sex tournaments. The only time I beat a man was when he was a complete beginner.

It feels offensive doesn't it? So many areas where people need support - bereavement, serious illness, poverty, racism, abuse and on and on. But filling in a form about whether men should be allowed to participate in women's fencing? Multiple sources of support are needed to cope with the trauma of giving your views? 🙄

My mum who's 79 now used to fence to Olympic standard.

I've always wondered if I'd be any good.. do they take on 48 year old newbies!

The veterans scene is vibrant and , from what I can tell, well lubricated!

I personally think the best option would be a "female" category and an "open" one. The female category would be for people born female only, and it may also have to exclude trans men and NB people who have been using testosterone due to the impact on upper body strength.

Anyone else can compete in the open category. Trans women would therefore be able to do so without misgendering themselves.

You'd think so, wouldn't you, but this solution has been strangely disliked by some trans athletes...