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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kew Gardens, yes, *Kew Gardens*, says plants have "gender" not "sex"

110 replies

MmePoppySeedDefage · 22/10/2023 18:54

I have been a member of Kew Gardens for a while. Every so often I get a magazine from them, and this unscientific bilge was in the latest edition. I've written and from the swift reply, obviously others have too. They mutter about fungus:

Thank you for your email. As part of Queer Nature, we explore how queer people find themselves in nature, and how a closer look at nature through a queer lens can challenge many pre-existing ideas about what is ‘natural’ and ‘unnatural’.

While we recognise that human sexual identities cannot be applied to nature, we want to celebrate the fact that, as in humans, there is huge diversity in the natural world. Many plants and fungi have characteristics that do not fit within traditional forms of categorisation. Some examples include:
• Avocado - is one example of many plants which is fertilised when its own pollen finds its way from the stamens into the ovule, meaning it can ‘self-pollinate’
• Ruizia Mauritiana - found in the Temperate House at Kew, this plant can change the flowers it produces based on temperature
• Some citrus and many other flowering plants produce seeds by apomixis, they reproduce without fertilisation and, in effect, are asexual.

• Liverworts – these can reproduce asexually by means of gemmae, which means a single cell, or a mass of cells, or a modified bud of tissue, that detaches from the parent and develops into a new individual
• Fungi - Fungi don’t have what we would refer to as biological sexes at all. In human terms, they are also the ultimate pansexuals, engaging in sexual reproduction with any compatible member of their own species.
• The Splitgill mushroom (Schizophyllum commune) has been found to have more than 23,000 mating types.

Kew Gardens, yes, *Kew Gardens*, says plants have "gender" not "sex"
OP posts:
Cailleach1 · 23/10/2023 15:23

That is from a different religion, @MargotBamborough . I know the seemingly constant woman=witch can make one confuse it with this new one.

Maybe we're not too far off the animal and plant kingdom being a spectrum. So, some people will identify as being at the flying, or breathing underwater end. We need to get rid of the categories bit. Don't sit too long in one place either or you'll grow roots. Because we're living, and all these plants and animals are too. Exactly the same.

TeiTetua · 23/10/2023 15:41

So, maybe woke botanists say that for plants, it is a case of "Gender assigned at sprouting".

EtiennePalmiere · 24/10/2023 05:12

I wonder if Kew thinks this is legitimate or they're just following a trend or making a cash grab? I agree it's arrogant to only consider plants as defined by humans and not in their own right.
Also I do think I would feel insulted if I was a queer person to be pandered to with such drivel.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 24/10/2023 05:27

I had a marketing email about it from them yesterday, featuring their ‘Pansy Patrol.’

FFS. Queer & Pansy are homophobic insults. I might email back accusing them of using hateful language to a lesbian.

SinnerBoy · 24/10/2023 06:20

Cailleach1 Yesterday 14:51

Some animals breath underwater. If you chuck someone into the sea and they drown, I'm sure a defence would be that it is a surprise that some people can't do that too. After all, #people are animals too.

Yeah, people drowning is total fake news. Because clownfish. It's a true fact, I read in the National Enquirer.

Slothtoes · 24/10/2023 08:55

I bet some poor actual scientists at Kew were approached to provide these examples of "queer", bisexual, pansexual etc organisms and rolled their eyes but had to do it for fear of being ostracised.

^This. The fear and compulsion. The not listening to the factual objections of staff and many of the members of the public who will want to see accuracy from scientific institutions.

Inclusivity and accessibility of their public benefit is what they should be demonstrating, across all the protected characteristics. What a terrible, anti democratic, anti truth, corrupting statement it is, when authoritative organisations start to sell out their organisation’s own core values for a political position that doesn’t respect all human rights equally.

A venerable scientific institution promoting anti science politics in order to project human attributes or intentions on to plants, who most definitely do not share those, as all botanists and scientists know full well, shows a craven, poorly led, captured institution

How does all that make LGB botanists and scientists, and female botanists and scientists, or visitors to Kew, or future sponsors, feel?

Poorly led institutions who would sell out the whole institution’s values, in favour of placing specific sexist misogynist homophobic politics at an untouchable unquestionable elevation, by politically sanctifying, ‘gender identity’ which isn’t even a legally protected characteristic, show themselves to be adopting unfairness and irrationality as a core vale instead.

Do these bodies really want to be stating corporately that don’t consider everyone including women and LGB people to be equal, and that they don’t care about the consequences of that for the public, their employees and anyone else they deal with?

Doing that might get a few more ££££ in from the funders who want to support gender identity. But these captured institutions are risking many many more £££££ in lawsuits and financial losses if they follow the political logic all the way through and start acting outside the law. I just don’t know why bosses or trustees of public bodies like this are allowed to dabble in such risky and morally questionable politics?

LGB plantswomen and plantsmen in social history and today across the world as an exhibition theme, would be great.
Gender identity examples from plants or anthropomorphising human sexual orientations on to plants - it’s just nonsense that should never have got further than the desk of the corporate sponsorship manager.

Igneococcus · 24/10/2023 09:11

It reminds me of a comment in the Times a few weeks back, I'll try find it in a moment, that said the problem is the increase in "science-adjacent" staff and organizations.
In the 30+ years I've been in science now it sometimes seems to me that there's been a massive increase in science-adjacent staff in scientific institutions and I'm unconvinced that benefitted science.

Zeugma · 24/10/2023 09:31

This is indeed a dark day to see Kew not just drinking the KoolAid, but grabbing the bottle with both hands and glugging it at speed. Sadly though, let's not forget that both the British Library and the Royal Society (that was the one that did it for me - the Royal Society) got there before them.

And to think that recent thing about 'woke science' was greeted with such derision - it may have been clumsily expressed for political gain but let's face it, it wasn’t far wrong, was it?

CoalTit · 24/10/2023 09:59

@DiscoBeat

I think some plants do change though? Pretty sure I've heard that before. Like some animals as well.
I've been wanting to say this since Hadley Freedom mistakenly told Margaret Atwood that every living thing is either male or female:
Not all animals are mammals, but all humans are mammals. All mammals are dioecious.
Dioecious is taken from Greek and means, literally "two houses". A dioecious species is one where every individual is either male or female.
We used to reserve the word dioecious for dioecious plants because it didn't need explaining that every mammal is one sex or the other, whereas there are all sorts of reproductive strategies in the kingdom Plantae, in the rest of the kingdom Animalia, in the kingdom Fungi, and (here my knowledge of the subject ends) possibly in the kingdom Archaebacteria, Eubacteria and Protista.

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 10:06

Igneococcus · 24/10/2023 09:11

It reminds me of a comment in the Times a few weeks back, I'll try find it in a moment, that said the problem is the increase in "science-adjacent" staff and organizations.
In the 30+ years I've been in science now it sometimes seems to me that there's been a massive increase in science-adjacent staff in scientific institutions and I'm unconvinced that benefitted science.

What does "science-adjacent" mean?

Is it like "sanity-adjacent"?

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 10:07

Cailleach1 · 23/10/2023 15:23

That is from a different religion, @MargotBamborough . I know the seemingly constant woman=witch can make one confuse it with this new one.

Maybe we're not too far off the animal and plant kingdom being a spectrum. So, some people will identify as being at the flying, or breathing underwater end. We need to get rid of the categories bit. Don't sit too long in one place either or you'll grow roots. Because we're living, and all these plants and animals are too. Exactly the same.

Oops, my bad.

Sometimes I get the new religion mixed up with the old ones. They have so much in common.

MargotBamborough · 24/10/2023 10:10

CoalTit · 24/10/2023 09:59

@DiscoBeat

I think some plants do change though? Pretty sure I've heard that before. Like some animals as well.
I've been wanting to say this since Hadley Freedom mistakenly told Margaret Atwood that every living thing is either male or female:
Not all animals are mammals, but all humans are mammals. All mammals are dioecious.
Dioecious is taken from Greek and means, literally "two houses". A dioecious species is one where every individual is either male or female.
We used to reserve the word dioecious for dioecious plants because it didn't need explaining that every mammal is one sex or the other, whereas there are all sorts of reproductive strategies in the kingdom Plantae, in the rest of the kingdom Animalia, in the kingdom Fungi, and (here my knowledge of the subject ends) possibly in the kingdom Archaebacteria, Eubacteria and Protista.

I can't believe someone thought it necessary to explain to Margaret Atwood, of all people, that humans are either male or female. Margaret flipping Atwood! The author of The Handmaid's Tale!

😵

What a time to be alive.

Igneococcus · 24/10/2023 10:20

This is the comment in the Times, @MargotBamborough it's not particularly good, it's very short without much detail
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/029da214-6612-11ee-a4e7-0fb10af55688?shareToken=4acff3dfabd0bf06c91c2896853d504f

The author means museum, journals, etc.
I've seen administration increase massively in scientific institutions which is a good thing to some extent, especially when it comes to managing grants, or making sure students are looked after and aren't relying on a frazzled academic for their paperwork. On the other hand, one research institute I know fairly well has gone through several rounds of redundancies, some very good scientists lost their jobs, but their outreach department increased throughout all these redundancies. Personally, I'd rather keep the scientists

Science can’t afford to make light of ‘creeping wokeism’

Something significant happened last week — a crack appeared in what has been a solid, decades-long consensus underpinning cross-party support for science in th

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/029da214-6612-11ee-a4e7-0fb10af55688?shareToken=4acff3dfabd0bf06c91c2896853d504f

Igneococcus · 24/10/2023 10:26

in the kingdom Archaebacteria, Eubacteria and Protista.

I can hear my Masters supervisor spinning in his grave :) It's been the domains of Archaea, Bacteria and Eukarya for several decades now with plants, fungi and protists all firmly in the Eukarya.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 24/10/2023 11:18

The Splitgill mushroom (Schizophyllum commune) has been found to have more than 23,000 mating types.

Do they all have names?

CoalTit · 24/10/2023 13:17

I can't believe someone thought it necessary to explain to Margaret Atwood, of all people, that humans are either male or female. Margaret flipping Atwood! The author of The Handmaid's Tale!
It's unfortunate that silly bloody Hadley Freeman got it wrong with "all living things", but Margaret Atwood clearly wasn't listening to her anyway.

CoalTit · 24/10/2023 13:21

Igneococcus · 24/10/2023 10:26

in the kingdom Archaebacteria, Eubacteria and Protista.

I can hear my Masters supervisor spinning in his grave :) It's been the domains of Archaea, Bacteria and Eukarya for several decades now with plants, fungi and protists all firmly in the Eukarya.

Thanks, @Igneococcus. I'm very sure about the first part of what I said but I'm way out of my depth beyond Animalia and Plantea.

Froodwithatowel · 24/10/2023 14:07

Desperate box ticking.

Next week: for those with the belief that they are reincarnated angels, we demonstrate plants that are a bit dead, and plants that kind of have wings, so they can 'find themselves' in the gardens, plus a lot of billboard blurb basically so we've done nicely with our funding bid.

I demand to be taken to the middle aged, wholly fed up with all this crap old bat greenhouse and shown the plants and sections where I can 'find myself'.

Slothtoes · 24/10/2023 16:04

Interesting points about science adjacent.
there is a happy medium somewhere between the bad situation where a very un-transparent scientific and medical professional establishment erodes public trust and doesn’t attract the brightest and best to work in it, through a lack of promoting wider understanding of what they (the scientists and medics) do. Then when an inevitable scandal or scare breaks out there is a public outcry for stopping them doing that work, often to the detriment of everyones knowledge or health in the future. Science adjacent work is valuable if it accurately but accessibly widens that public understanding. This queering the plant kingdom stuff is worthless, unscientific crap though.

MagpiePi · 24/10/2023 16:13

YetAnotherSpartacus · 24/10/2023 11:18

The Splitgill mushroom (Schizophyllum commune) has been found to have more than 23,000 mating types.

Do they all have names?

More importantly, do they all have flags?

ApocalipstickNow · 24/10/2023 16:15

Well some irises do.

FictionalCharacter · 24/10/2023 16:23

ApocalipstickNow · 24/10/2023 16:15

Well some irises do.

Very good 😉

RethinkingLife · 24/10/2023 17:29

ApocalipstickNow · 24/10/2023 16:15

Well some irises do.

Likewise beards.

ApocalipstickNow · 24/10/2023 17:54

yeah they’re the drag queens.

Tinysoxxx · 24/10/2023 18:43

Plasmodesmata · 23/10/2023 07:51

I always thought it would be useful to photosynthesise.

No going out in the sun or drinking water if you wanted to lose weight.