Binder

[jd88123]

My 11 year old Daughter who says she is non binary has been repeatedly asking me for a binder for the past 6 months. She says she hates her boobs and doesn't want to have big ones like me. I have said no as it restricts growth and is unhealthy. She said her friend in Sweden who is trans has one. She keeps asking me for reasons. I've told her when she's 18 she can make the decision as she's too young to fully understand. I've also told her she doesn't need to decide her sexuality, if she's non binary at this age either as she may change her mind as she grows. I just feel like this is such a minefield for kids growing up now. I ended up banning tik tok and you tube for other reasons but I can't help feel she is influenced by online stuff. Am I being unreasonable saying no to a binder? I feel bad I'm stopping her being who she wants to be but I think she's far too young to understand. What would you do? Any parents who have had similar experiences? Thanks.

Who is this "friend" in Sweden? Sweden has been changing its mind about transitioning children and I can't easily imagine any doctor recommending a binder to an 11 year old because binders are physically damaging. But a firm supportive sports bra can be a reasonable substitute for a growing body.

www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/breast-binding-self-harm-or-gender-care/ www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/breast-binding-self-harm-or-gender-care/]]

You are doing the right thing. Being a good parent.

You're being perfectly reasonable - no children / teenagers should be harming their bodies with binders.
The "friend" in Sweden (for an 11 year old) suggests that she has an online presence that may be contributing to her belief in "non binary", binders etc. She's a young child and needs protecting from all this if it's leading to her to want to avoid growing up with a healthy attitude to her body.

Get her away from unknown influences on the internet as a start and take a look at Genspect, Transgender Trend and other responsible organisation who support parents in keeping their children safe.

This is awful that an 11 year old is even thinking in these terms.

Also, this "friend in Sweden" could be anybody. Do you know how she met this "friend" online? It needs reporting to whoever deals with online safeguarding on whatever platform or service she is using.

It's worth looking into the damage that binders can do. For example rib damage.

Also look at some before and after 'gender affirming' double mastectomy sugery. There are plenty out there and the damage in the before photos to the breast tissue is horrific. If she hates her breasts now, it's only going to be made worse if she damages them with binders.

At 11yo, she won't be thinking about what breasts actually are. She won't be thinking about a future where she takes away the option of ever breastfeeding any children that she might have. That future is too far away and too much of a 'maybe' to be important. As adults we know how much time flies, we know how much you change as you grow and mature.

IIRC it was Scott Newgent who said that children can't see around corners (basically they have short term thinking and don't understand all the dangers/consequenses) and that as parents/adults, we need to do this for them.

ETA. Just to make it clear, I agree with you when you write that 'she's too young to fully understand' and not ignoring that you wrote that (which I think my post could be mis-interpreted as, but it's not my intention).

Absolutely do not get her a binder.

What she is asking you to do, is to get her a constrictive device with the aim of warping her tissue development. Her breast tissue will probably be the size it was going to be, whatever size breasts she's destined to have. The only difference a binder is sure to make is by forcing her body to develop in a malformed shape to fit the binder.

Rather like Chinese foot binding, except without the initial breaking of every bone in the foot.

You might find this useful, OP. It's an explanation of "breast flattening", a traditional abuse of girls.
https://nationalfgmcentre.org.uk/breast-flattening/

The parallels with chest binding are clear.

Hi OP

Binding is harmful despite many messages of positive outcomes your daughter may hear.

Here is a study.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13691058.2016.1191675

This is a ”cross-sectional 32-item survey was administered online to an anonymous, non-random sample of adults who were assigned a female sex at birth and had had experience of binding (n = 1800). Multivariate regression models were used to identify practices associated with self-reported health outcomes. Of participants, 51.5% reported daily binding. Over 97% reported at least one of 28 negative outcomes attributed to binding”

Then

“These outcomes were: rib fractures, back pain, chest pain, rib or spine changes, bad posture, shoulder pain, shoulder joint ‘popping’, muscle wasting, numbness, headache, overheating, fatigue, weakness, lightheadedness or dizziness, cough, respiratory infections, shortness of breath, heartburn, abdominal pain, digestive issues, breast changes, breast tenderness, scarring, swelling, acne, itch, skin changes and skin infections.”

And

”Experiencing any health outcome related to binding was nearly universal, with 97.2% of participants reporting at least one negative outcome they attributed to binding. The most commonly reported outcomes were back pain (53.8%), overheating (53.5%), chest pain (48.8%), shortness of breath (46.6%), itching (44.9%), bad posture (40.3%) and shoulder pain (38.9%) (Table 3). Of the categories examined, skin/soft tissue and pain symptoms were most common, with 76.3% of respondents reporting any skin/tissue concern and 74.0% reporting any pain-related concern.”

It is worth remembering this was adults being surveyed. Not growing children! I cannot imagine anyone would say that adolescents would have better results, I expect it to be much worse!

Please also be aware that determined girls will also get binders delivered to well meaning friend’s addresses. I know of two girls who have done this so their parents did not know they had them.

I remember seeing some tweets a while ago where Trans activists talked about ‘cracking an egg’ - basically grooming young children to believe they are trans and then pursue treatment. They weren’t necessarily trans individuals themselves or if they were then they weren’t always having any medical intervention at all. But they were persuading young children online, or in person, to go that route.

What do you know about this Swedish ‘friend’? I mean really know?

I would get your daughter off the internet

Not sure if you have tried this, but have you suggested she wear loose, baggy clothing? I agree it is important to highlight the health risks associated with chest binding to her.

Absolutely this.

She's young enough for you to be able to get control over this nonsense.

I discovered that one of the girls ordering binders delivered to other addresses was also ‘advising’ younger tweens (she was 14) about sexuality and gender. I would definitely try to get your daughter off the internet, OP.

The same girl bragged about their news mates from chat boards. And then within weeks was recounting period and incest fetish sex stories to her school friends. And yet was advising younger girls about sex.

Wearing something that constricts her breathing and causes discomfort is going to make her more conscious of her chest/breasts not less.

The next step is well if I had 'top surgery' I could get rid of the awful binder.

This.

This is Noah Halpjn of TENI who recommends binders to kids fundraising, she has to have spinal surgery because of damage caused by wearing a binder.

twitter.com/catqqshadow/status/1715405045435445275?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

You have to say no.

Your 11 year old is chatting to some Swedish friend on the internet?

You need to deal with this.

Thanks for the useful information and replies. I stopped her speaking to thr 13 year old in Sweden as felt they were a bad influence. They met on roblox and we done a video call to make sure they were a child. I will show her those studies, not that it will change her mind I doubt but yes way I'm allowing her to buy one. Yes she may find a way to obtain one but I hope she grows out of this phase. Thanks again for the useful info.

Roblox is notorious for the grooming etc No way would I have let my kids have Roblox

Your reasoning is well backed-up by the studies others have already linked in this thread - they could cause damage to her body.

As a compromise, could you help her to find a bra that is not a danger to her health that would make her chest look smaller? Sports bras, crop tops, even bras without underwire can have a minimising effect. As others have said, baggy clothes can do a lot to hide your figure if that's what you want to do. Of course, this has been the time-honoured route of awkward female adolescents, but they all need to feel they've invented the wheel anew.

The good news is the massively baggy look is very cool currently.

She already wears baggy clothes and I've bought her some sports bra that are tight fitting as a compromise but she still continues to ask me for a binder. I'm hoping she won't ask again soon as I've told her I won't change my mind.

I would talk her through all the harms binders do too rather than just say no, to try and protect her from getting one from another route.

Yes, have you talked to her about the damage? As a responsible parent, you wouldn't allow her to walk around in shoes that are too small, would that be a useful analogy?

I’d firstly talk about puberty with her and how her feelings are normal. I detested my breasts when they started to grow. I hated everything about them, and I hated the impact they had on my life, particularly regarding Summer tops. They - in my opinion - looked hideously noticeable and just wrong.

Some children feel that hate more strongly than others, but all feel discomfort and dis-ease when puberty starts. That’s normal. Try to phrase it as something positive - growing up, maturing, about to get taller/stronger/whatever appeals to your DD. Tell her that this is a stage of growth that everyone goes through and that her feelings are normal. Point out that the hundreds of women she knows went through a similar phase yet are fine now.

Cut all connections with this Swedish girl and anyone like her. Ask your DD what she thinks non-binary means and listen to her, with gently probing questions that make her think. Make a point of praising a wide variety of girls and women to her so she knows girls can be scientists, have short hair, not wear make up, be astronauts, berating car drivers, etc etc.

Work on her self-esteem subtly. Share stories from when you were a similar age. I found that really helped me when my mum did that. Check she’s not been receiving misinformation about menstruation that’s making her more stressed about being female.